Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Beetle, Karmann Ghia, Thing.

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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:59 am

Latest post of the previous page:

Getting very very close. Have managed to extract things with a minimum of destruction to parts extracted. You realize that this is the easy part. Getting it put back together will be the bigger challenge, with essentially every piece removed needing restoration/refurbishing/cleaning and all.

And of course, concerns about the heater channels, as they look a bit bubbly with rust at least on the driver's side. Still scratching my head on a brace across the doors, repeatedly recommended. A prefabbed bolt-on to hinge and strike plate would be sweet, but if available, most likely cost prohibitive.

And of course plenty of advice from those who lack my affliction, and at this point, commitment. Lot's of Craigslist ads for other Ghias sent my way, lo and behold a second body (1974) choice tempting just for the cheap investment. Maybe hang it up on the roof in the big bay of the barn? So lots to ponder.

Including the wisdom of dipping the body to strip it of rust and paint. And I would truly appreciate thoughts of folks regarding this. I ruled out an acid bath dip, and found an outfit that does an eco-friendly electrolysis process I was stoked to utilize. I've seen it referenced here and there as a method to de-rust say headlight mount assemblies and smaller parts with a baking soda solution I believe and a battery charger, but in this case on an industrial level. Then there's the media blasting approach. I've always been drawn to soda blasting, as it strikes me as about as gentle a blast possible over sand or walnut shell plastic bead approaches. The dip just sounded so much less labor intensive on my part. Especially if you bail on media blasting and go to sanding.

I mentioned the dipping plans to my go-to vendor Monday and he was aghast and adamantly recommended the labor intensive prospect of sanding as the best approach. He has of course seen the results of the alternatives, expressing concerns about traces of the solutions of dipping processes and media blasting in crevasses and spots that never get washed truly clean that then eat away and compromise the mission of the processes to begin with. Baking soda is essentially a salt. Most if not all in-fluid electrical conduit additives are. And of course acid is a given corrosive.

So my mind is wrestling with all of that. Does it need to be bare shiny metal absolutely? Sanding the interior where all the crevasses are? Yikes.

I'm down to details of what still needs to be done to get to just metal once the body is lifted off. Speedometer cable, gas flap bits, badging and insignia, some trim, rear-window defrost tubes, wiring to the in-glass defrost and dome light there on the rear-view mirror, a pesky screw still holding on a grill and the piece behind it on the passenger side nostril, gutter trim riveted on on the driver's side, no rivet on the passenger side, it came off easily, and then the front and rear glass, headliner, doors, and front trunk lid.

I'll get some photos up if not tomorrow, Friday.


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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:09 am

ruckman101 wrote:Getting very very close.
dipping the body to strip it of rust and paint.
And I would truly appreciate thoughts of folks regarding this.
I've always been drawn to soda blasting, as it strikes me as about as gentle a blast possible over sand or walnut shell plastic bead approaches.
Does it need to be bare shiny metal absolutely?

neal
Soda blast for sure. Thorough rinse before primer. read up on alkaline neutralizing sauce before you prime. I would be curious if you could replicate the VW phosphate dip to cover the internal crevasses.
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Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 80,070 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by hambone » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:27 am

If some of the paint is ok then why remove it all? I would just concentrate on the rust, this isn't going into the Smithsonian. We're talking a daily driver economy car here. Unless you have deep pockets.
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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:33 pm

I can dream, can't I. Why go all the way to do a half-ass job? Went and looked at the $200 1974 body. It's in worse shape than Gretchen's. And I don't think it was a '74, tail-lights were too small.


Oi, my head hurts just thinking about it. No doubt sodium carbonate from Harbor Freight is the most cost effective, and if I recall, the preferred over sodium bicarbonate additive to water for the five gallon bucket battery charger electrolysis rust removal/restoration process, and I suspect something similar to the dip process I was considering investing in.

And hanging plastic for a containment room, and LOW HUMIDITY! That means mid to late July.

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!


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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:40 am

ruckman101 wrote:Oi, my head hurts just thinking about it. No doubt sodium carbonate from Harbor Freight is the most cost effective, and if I recall, the preferred over sodium bicarbonate additive to water for the five gallon bucket battery charger electrolysis rust removal/restoration process, and I suspect something similar to the dip process I was considering investing in.

And hanging plastic for a containment room, and LOW HUMIDITY! That means mid to late July.

Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!


neal
Here in the Real World, we look at the directions and we perform calculii. If 50% or less humidity is called-for, but it is 71% today, we analyze the consequences and often say ahhhwhathehell. I would stretch the parameters for soda blasting and promise to make up for it at the primer stage.
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Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 80,070 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:26 pm

Alright, photos it is. It ain't pretty.

Image

Image

Image

Gretchen Ghia is at the moment a bit like the Scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz after the flying monkeys got done with him.

Made a little headway today, puzzling how to remove the gas filler pipe.

Image

This is what it looked like after I knocked off a couple pounds of mud. Sure are hoses going nowhere, or completely crimped, and some mighty robust grommets gripping the pipe. The charcoal canister has never been in place, and all this must be efforts to capture vapors, including a small tube that had nothing attached to it from the trunk to the engine near the air cleaner.

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So it goes. The assembly had (originally) canvas hose connecting the metal at critical bends. None there.

Puzzling the cable assembly that releases the flap to access the filler tube. Apparently the interior handle has to come off, which I haven't yet figured out how to do.

And I have been encouraged that with a history of back corner panel benders, I have yet to spot any evidence of repairs.


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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:49 pm

hambone wrote:If some of the paint is ok then why remove it all? I would just concentrate on the rust, this isn't going into the Smithsonian. We're talking a daily driver economy car here. Unless you have deep pockets.
Actually, the intent has always been as best a complete restoration as possible. The cost savings solely my labor. Which is why I wanted to practice on Betty Baja first, but, alas, that wasn't the way the stars aligned.

As for the "daily driver economy car" crack, au contraire, when one of the comments from the public was, "Wow, I never thought I would ever see one of these actually running on the road," it transcends that definition. Not to mention that the Karmann Ghia is to date the most eloquently designed automobile ever manufactured. I have always loved these sheep in wolf's clothing.

And long-term, Gretchen's eventual sale is part of my retirement plan. Every dollar a worthy investment barring mishaps Colin's Road Warrior suffered, which is why even a ragged purported 1974 body alone is still a tempting investment.

Yeah, I got it bad.


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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Nov 08, 2014 7:27 am

The small plastic tube from the front trunk is the Gas vapor line from the gas tank to the charcoal canister which then is hooked to the air cleaner. This sucks the excess vapor thru the canister to the carb to burn it off. If on hot days you smell gas this is why as the gas expands in the tank it goes into the trunk area/cabin instead of being sucked and burnt off.
On my Ghia the overflow hose had a crack where I couldn't see it (the up shot of the fender area) so everytime I mad a hard left turn lots of gas smell. Tore those hoses apart finally and replaced em to stop that!
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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 9:55 pm

The "aroma" of gasoline has always been a presence after fill-ups, but then diminished. The tube is metal though, not plastic. So in the engine compartment, does it connect on the intake manifold under the carb? To the carb? To the air-cleaner? Not that I'm going to be hooking it up any time soon.

Anyway, got the front windshield out today, and my fears of rust and rotten metal in the bottom corners were thankfully exaggerated compared to the reality. I'm encouraged.

Image

Driver's side.

Image

Passenger side.

And here's a bit of detail. The foamy dash cap went around the window air vents, with a chunk of vinyl to fill in the gap between the vent and window, under the seal.

Image

Image

And finally, is drilling the best solution to removing the rivets holding the rain-gutter trim on?

Image

I did manage to get the gas-filler pipe out. Wriggled it into the trunk until the top cleared it's rubber grommet, then spun it about in the wheel well and out of it's rubber grommet in the trunk.


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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:15 pm

ruckman101 wrote: So in the engine compartment, does <evaporative line> connect on the intake manifold under the carb?
To the carb? To the air-cleaner?

is drilling the best solution to removing the rivets holding the rain-gutter trim on?
l
The evap line goes to the charcoal canister. The charcoal canister goes to the air cleaner. The charcoal canister gets its fresh air supply from the fan. It is all in your Bentley.

Yes. I don't remember rivets from the factory.
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BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 80,070 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:33 am

The other side had no rivets.

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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:44 pm

ruckman101 wrote:The other side had no rivets.

neal
I hate rivets. They harsh my buzz out in the wilds when I want to disassemble things . . .
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 80,070 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 5:46 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
ruckman101 wrote:The other side had no rivets.

neal
I hate rivets. They harsh my buzz out in the wilds when I want to disassemble things . . .
Colin
How about nails? Much of the interior is attached with small nails, including the last two pieces of trim that will see Gretchen Ghia's body entirely stripped and ready to separate from the pan. Well, once I get the doors off. Those massive phillips screws have resisted efforts to come out so far. Oh, and the rain gutter trim still riveted on on the driver's side.

Image

Anyone know what size bit it is that fits these?

The trim is at the door on the latch side. One screw at the top, and nails down to nails through a metal plate at the floor.

Image

Image

Image

Any suggestions on extricating these pieces? Do I put in new nails in the old holes on re-assembly? in new spots? Here's what those nails look like.

Image

Here's the paper hose that carries heat to the vent in the rear window. What's the logic of the larger bit in the middle?

Image

Innovative hose clamps on it.

Image

And here is one of the reasons the body is coming off. Sag. This is the sag between the door and the body at the latch on the driver's side.

Image

I understand there are some spacers between the pan and the body that compress over the years causing this.

And I managed to get the gas door release cable extracted. The handle screws off, but mine just twisted the cable into two pieces. Dang it.

Anyway, there it is. Cold today. First snow.

Image



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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:14 pm

ruckman101 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:I hate rivets. They harsh my buzz out in the wilds when I want to disassemble things . . Colin
How about nails?

Here's the paper hose that carries heat to the vent in the rear window. What's the logic of the larger bit in the middle? Innovative hose clamps on it.

And here is one of the reasons the body is coming off. Sag.

Cold today. First snow.
neal

Man, I can feel it. Both the cold and the Disassembly Deliriums.

Nails! Just like old coachbuilders. Reuse them if they still work. Are they going into metal or wood?

No idea on that paper hose deal unless the center section is actually just an insulator?
I have those hose clamps on the Squareback. Seem to work. Easier than fiddling with screwdrivers slipping out of worm clamps . . .

Man, good luck with your snowy cold, I am having a little myself, here in rainy 40* Florida (low 32* tonight) in a garage with a hurricane heater that I spool up for ten minutes every hour or so.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 80,070 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by ruckman101 » Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:37 pm

The nails go into metal. The placement of the hose would suggest insulation wasn't a consideration.


stay warm,
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Re: Committed, Gretchen Ghia Body-Off Restoration.

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Nov 14, 2014 8:01 am

ruckman101 wrote:The nails go into metal. The placement of the hose would suggest insulation wasn't a consideration.

stay warm,
neal
I have been searching and searching for that hose + location of the run.
My first intuition was that it is insulation. It looks like the BobD's center heater hose which is this big paper hose on the outside, but a smaller actual hose comes out both ends.
If you could give us the locations for the ends of the hose and a description of the area surrounding the middle of the hose, it would help. Do you have heat outlets along the bottom edge of the rear window, or are they substantially lower in the interior?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 80,070 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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