Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED!!!

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renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:37 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Have you pulled solenoid and cleaned opening and plunger and tested for retraction?
Have you unscrewed pilot jet and cleaned orifice and jet?
Colin
Is there a solenoid on the carb, or are you talking about the starter solenoid?

I did check and the pilot jet, but not orifice. I'll do that next time...

New info: I installed a new fuel pump and safety relay. The pump is the same one in the Blue Bus: a Carter rotary with constant 3.5 PSI. The Beetle still starts up fine, but now won't idle on its own at all. It dies if i don't give it gas, then won't start back up, almost like it's flooded. I can smell a little gas too. If I wait a couple minutes it'll start up again, but just won't idle on it's own. Might the carb be way out of whack?
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:47 pm

renobdarb wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:Have you pulled solenoid and cleaned opening and plunger and tested for retraction?
Have you unscrewed pilot jet and cleaned orifice and jet?
Colin
Is there a solenoid on the carb, or are you talking about the starter solenoid?
Might the carb be way out of whack?
We are not talking about the starter. The idle cut-off solenoid . . . with the pigtail red wire in your photograph.

Image


If it is flooding, you need to disassemble and check fuel inlet needle valve and possibly the float itself.
If you get all components together for carb or injection option, get me out there for a Put It All Together Tutorial.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:57 am

Amskeptic wrote:Have you pulled solenoid and cleaned opening and plunger and tested for retraction?
Have you unscrewed pilot jet and cleaned orifice and jet?
Colin
Ok, so the scant service records that I got from the PO indicate this carb is only two and a half years old (installed in summer of 2010), but I just went ahead and removed and thoroughly cleaned the carb and installed the carb rebuild kit I bought along with the new fuel pump. So the carb has new:

-Vacuum diaphram in choke
-Needle valve
-Pump diaphram
-various gaskets and rubber o-rings

Re-installed the carb, tightened Air Bypass Screw to a stop, then loosened 2 full turns. Tightened Volume Control Screw to a stop, then loosened 3 full turns.

Also per your suggestion, I pulled/checked solenoid and the plunger seems to be retracting as it should. Float also appears to be fine.

Started right up but still won't idle! :scratch:

After installing the carb and starting it up, I had a friend watch the fast idle cam, and it appears to be moving as it should as the car warms up.

Even though the carb probably needs some fine-tuning after a cleaning, I feel like it should at least idle on its own, at least roughly, or at least act like it wants to. This thing just will not idle unless I'm giving it a little gas.

Might it be something else entirely? Plugs? Points? I've never adjusted points but hell, I'm game...

Is the DVDA distributor OK for this setup (as opposed to an SVDA)?

Confused...
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:18 pm

renobdarb wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:Have you pulled solenoid and cleaned opening and plunger and tested for retraction?
Have you unscrewed pilot jet and cleaned orifice and jet?
Colin
Ok, so the scant service records that I got from the PO indicate this carb is only two and a half years old (installed in summer of 2010), but I just went ahead and removed and thoroughly cleaned the carb and installed the carb rebuild kit I bought along with the new fuel pump. So the carb has new:

-Vacuum diaphram in choke
-Needle valve
-Pump diaphram
-various gaskets and rubber o-rings

Re-installed the carb, tightened Air Bypass Screw to a stop, then loosened 2 full turns. Tightened Volume Control Screw to a stop, then loosened 3 full turns.

Also per your suggestion, I pulled/checked solenoid and the plunger seems to be retracting as it should. Float also appears to be fine.

Started right up but still won't idle! :scratch:

After installing the carb and starting it up, I had a friend watch the fast idle cam, and it appears to be moving as it should as the car warms up.

Even though the carb probably needs some fine-tuning after a cleaning, I feel like it should at least idle on its own, at least roughly, or at least act like it wants to. This thing just will not idle unless I'm giving it a little gas.

Might it be something else entirely? Plugs? Points? I've never adjusted points but hell, I'm game...

Is the DVDA distributor OK for this setup (as opposed to an SVDA)?

Confused...
Well . . . the vacuum hoses are on backwards in that photograph . . . :drunken:
The retard hose is the one crammed closest to the cap, the advance hose is underneath and pointing out towards us a little. The advance hose goes on the left side nipple, the retard one goes on the nipple facing rearward.

If you timed it with hoses off at 3,000 rpm to 28*, good leave it. If not, re-adjust the timing to 28* BTDC hoses off.

A correctly functioning retard will pull the idle down pretty fiercely, so you will have to open up the big brass screw a good deal to compensate, as designed by the factory for lots of airflow at idle.

Get out there and crank that big brass screw out 6 turns or whatever, who cares? try to find a decent mixture while keeping it running with your hand on the throttle lever if it won't run by itself.

You should try to get the best idle you can, hold it there, and pull the stupid wire off the solenoid. It *must* wreck whatever idle you have. If there is no change, I think there is a base gasket on backwards, upside down, something! that is blocking idle air flow.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:47 am

Amskeptic wrote:Well . . . the vacuum hoses are on backwards in that photograph . . . :drunken:
The retard hose is the one crammed closest to the cap, the advance hose is underneath and pointing out towards us a little. The advance hose goes on the left side nipple, the retard one goes on the nipple facing rearward.
Yuppers... I actually learned they were backwards soon after I got it home (just after I took that photo). I switched them at that time so they've been in the correct position during this process.
Amskeptic wrote:If you timed it with hoses off at 3,000 rpm to 28*, good leave it. If not, re-adjust the timing to 28* BTDC hoses off.
So since this is a stock FI setup, the pulley has only the TDC and 5* ATDC marks. How do I find a 28* BTDC? Regardless, while it may not be exact, I was able to check it with a timing light and the timing appears to be close to 28* BTDC at 3000 rpm.
Amskeptic wrote:A correctly functioning retard will pull the idle down pretty fiercely, so you will have to open up the big brass screw a good deal to compensate, as designed by the factory for lots of airflow at idle.

Get out there and crank that big brass screw out 6 turns or whatever, who cares? try to find a decent mixture while keeping it running with your hand on the throttle lever if it won't run by itself.
Turned air bypass screw six more turns out with same result. Turned it another 5 turns out (I could see the rubber o-ring so I turned it back in just a little) and same result.
Amskeptic wrote:You should try to get the best idle you can, hold it there, and pull the stupid wire off the solenoid. It *must* wreck whatever idle you have. If there is no change, I think there is a base gasket on backwards, upside down, something! that is blocking idle air flow.
Colin
Since I cannot get an idle at all and have been through this carb inside and out, maybe it's time to begin looking elsewhere for the problem, as you mention here? Vacuum leak somewhere perhaps?

I also wanted to check the points in the distributor however I can't seem to get the little plastic cover doohickey off as the rotor's in the way (the SVDA on the Blue Bus doesn't have this).
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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dtrumbo
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by dtrumbo » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:39 am

renobdarb wrote:So since this is a stock FI setup, the pulley has only the TDC and 5* ATDC marks. How do I find a 28* BTDC?
If your timing light has an advance control (If not, I highly recommend you get one), set it to 28º and then time the engine so at 3000 RPM the TDC mark is at the top of the pulley aka case parting line.

renobdarb wrote:I also wanted to check the points in the distributor however I can't seem to get the little plastic cover doohickey off as the rotor's in the way (the SVDA on the Blue Bus doesn't have this).
Pull the rotor off and then remove the plastic cover. The rotor is always in the way anyway and it (should) come off easily.
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:44 am

OK, so here's a recap of what I've done so far:

- Replaced rubber fuel lines.
- Replaced fuel pump (moved pump location from engine compartment to just under tank).
- Installed fuel pump safety relay.
- Adjusted the valves.
- Checked the points (thanks for the advice, dtrumbo!).
- Checked the timing (founded a timing scale online, printed it out and marked 30* BTDC on the flywheel).
- Removed, disassembled, cleaned carb, re-assembled with rebuild kit.
- Checked idle cuttoff valve — took off curly wire, turned key to "on" position (engine off) and I get *clicks* when the wire's terminal is touched to the post on the valve. The plunger on the valve also seems to be retracting and expanding as it should.

The beetle still starts up fine, it just won't idle on its own. I fiddled with Air Bypass Screw on carb, but it doesn't seem to matter if it's unscrewed 3 turns, 6 turns or 9 turns, it doesn't have an affect.

I'm going to try and make a little video so you can see exactly what's happening. Maybe you'll be able to see something that I'm missing... this is getting a bit frustrating.
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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SlowLane
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by SlowLane » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:49 am

You mentioned that the Carter electric fuel pump that you are using puts out 3.5 psi.
1) Have you measured that yourself, with engine running, or are you taking Carter's word for it?
2) Isn't 3.5 psi a tad on the high side for a stock Solex(Brosol) carb?

Oh, also, please replace that kewl transparent distributor cap with a proper stock one. The transparent ones are known to be crap.

Finally, have you checked to make sure your distributor vacuum diaphragms are intact? The retard diaphragm in particular is prone to failure.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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dingo
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by dingo » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:31 pm

renobdarb wrote:OK, so here's a recap of what I've done so far:


The beetle still starts up fine, it just won't idle on its own. I fiddled with Air Bypass Screw on carb, but it doesn't seem to matter if it's unscrewed 3 turns, 6 turns or 9 turns, it doesn't have an affect.
.
either blocked idle circuit...or vacuum leak thats over-riding the air adjust screw
'71 Kombi, 1600 dp

';78 Tranzporter 2L

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:21 pm

SlowLane wrote:Have you measured that yourself, with engine running, or are you taking Carter's word for it?
2) Isn't 3.5 psi a tad on the high side for a stock Solex(Brosol) carb?
I haven't measured it myself, no, but have no reason to believe it isn't what they say. I have one in my bus and it works great; I will concede that I have dual Webers in the bus, and I've read that a Solex carb likes 2.5-3 psi, but I don't think 1/2 psi would cause my problems. The old pump that was installed (incorrectly) in the engine compartment was a Facet Posi-Flo with 4-7 psi, and it seemed like it actually ran better. The car would at least idle for a minute or two before dying. Now it won't idle at all.
SlowLane wrote:Oh, also, please replace that kewl transparent distributor cap with a proper stock one. The transparent ones are known to be crap.
That's an old photo and the cap's been replaced.
SlowLane wrote:Finally, have you checked to make sure your distributor vacuum diaphragms are intact? The retard diaphragm in particular is prone to failure.
What's the best way to check this?
dingo wrote:either blocked idle circuit...or vacuum leak thats over-riding the air adjust screw
Are you talking about a blocked idle circuit at the solenoid?

VIDEOS

A short tour of my engine compartment can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/9woly22

A short video of me starting the car can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/bjzm7vf

In the second video, pay no attention to wobbling belt; it's just the frame rate of the video that's making it look wonky.

I try starting it four times. The first time I start it, it's cold. In one of the subsequent starts, you can see that I hold the throttle at a higher RPM, and it still dies.
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:29 pm

renobdarb wrote:
SlowLane wrote:Have you measured that yourself, with engine running, or are you taking Carter's word for it?
2) Isn't 3.5 psi a tad on the high side for a stock Solex(Brosol) carb?
I haven't measured it myself, no, but have no reason to believe it isn't what they say. I have one in my bus and it works great; I will concede that I have dual Webers in the bus, and I've read that a Solex carb likes 2.5-3 psi, but I don't think 1/2 psi would cause my problems. The old pump that was installed (incorrectly) in the engine compartment was a Facet Posi-Flo with 4-7 psi, and it seemed like it actually ran better. The car would at least idle for a minute or two before dying. Now it won't idle at all.
SlowLane wrote:Oh, also, please replace that kewl transparent distributor cap with a proper stock one. The transparent ones are known to be crap.
That's an old photo and the cap's been replaced.
SlowLane wrote:Finally, have you checked to make sure your distributor vacuum diaphragms are intact? The retard diaphragm in particular is prone to failure.
What's the best way to check this?
dingo wrote:either blocked idle circuit...or vacuum leak thats over-riding the air adjust screw
Are you talking about a blocked idle circuit at the solenoid?

VIDEOS

A short tour of my engine compartment can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/9woly22

A short video of me starting the car can be found here: http://tinyurl.com/bjzm7vf

In the second video, pay no attention to wobbling belt; it's just the frame rate of the video that's making it look wonky.

I try starting it four times. The first time I start it, it's cold. In one of the subsequent starts, you can see that I hold the throttle at a higher RPM, and it still dies.
I can fix it in 30 minutes.
Can too.
Colin
(hoses were off when you checked timing at 30* @ 3,000 rpm)
(leave retard hose off)
(have someone else start engine while you grab the throttle lever)
(with the big idle speed screw out whatever that 6 turns was, now crank out the little screw crazy like to see if it catches the idle circuit and suddenly lets the engine idle. if no love at all, seat it and come out three turns)
(at as low of a speed as possible, remove wire to solenoid and re-touch the wire to the spade, you *must* hear/feel a difference, if you do not, take carb off and re-clean all idle passages, you can see the tracks through the body of the carb to the throttle plate area.)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:38 pm

Amskeptic wrote:I can fix it in 30 minutes.
Can too.
Colin
Oh, I believe you, but I sure do wish you were hear to prove it!
Amskeptic wrote:(hoses were off when you checked timing at 30* @ 3,000 rpm)
Yes.
Amskeptic wrote:(leave retard hose off)
OK
Amskeptic wrote:(have someone else start engine while you grab the throttle lever)
(with the big idle speed screw out whatever that 6 turns was, now crank out the little screw crazy like to see if it catches the idle circuit and suddenly lets the engine idle. if no love at all, seat it and come out three turns)
When you say "big idle speed screw" I'm assuming you mean the air bypass screw. If so, I'm gettin' no lovin' no matter how far it's screwed in or out.

Funny thing here is that it now won't idle at all anymore. If you remember, my original problem was that the beetle would start up and idle fine after sitting cold, but would stall out after about 2.5 - 3 minutes of idling in its own. And even then, it would stay running if I gave it gas. Now, it'll start up pretty much every time, but it stalls after probably 12-15 seconds, no matter what the RPM (see video). It does stay running long enough to check the timing at 3,000+ RPM.
Amskeptic wrote:(at as low of a speed as possible, remove wire to solenoid and re-touch the wire to the spade, you *must* hear/feel a difference, if you do not, take carb off and re-clean all idle passages, you can see the tracks through the body of the carb to the throttle plate area.)
Like I say, it won't stay running at a low speed at all. I think maybe taking the carb off and re-cleaning all the idle passages might be my next move... :angryfire:
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:00 pm

renobdarb wrote: I think maybe taking the carb off and re-cleaning all the idle passages might be my next move... :angryfire:
Try the mixture screw (little) out a lot of turns with the big idle SPEED (they call it bypass who cares?) screw way out.

Also, do this fun experiment:
Look at the choke fast idle, it has the teeth that the screw at the top of the throttle lever touches when the choke is on.

The teeth thing is called the fast idle cam. It is turned on by the little hooked deal that the choke plate is attached to. YOU WILL MAKE IT IDLE if you pull the throttle lever out just enough to clear the little teeth as you rotate the choke plate lever (it will be in the push direction). If you overdo it, you'll flood the engine out, so go slow and find the perfect spot that makes it run. It will have to be faster than normal of course because the little teeth will get in the way of the throttle lever screw. Please let me know how nicely it ran with you manually applying the choke just right. This will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the idle circuit is clogged. I think it is crap behind the pilot jet on the right, the one that is diagonally oriented.

By the way. There is no more fun than this.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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zabo
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by zabo » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:22 am

Sorry if I missed it but your sure your float isn't leaking?
60 beetle
78 bus

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:56 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Try the mixture screw (little) out a lot of turns with the big idle SPEED (they call it bypass who cares?) screw way out.
I don't care what's it's called either, however in the interest of making sure I'm futzing with the right thing I just wanted to be on the same page. :thumbleft:
Amskeptic wrote:Also, do this fun experiment:
Look at the choke fast idle, it has the teeth that the screw at the top of the throttle lever touches when the choke is on. YOU WILL MAKE IT IDLE if you pull the throttle lever out just enough to clear the little teeth as you rotate the choke plate lever (it will be in the push direction).
OK, did that, and..........
Amskeptic wrote:Please let me know how nicely it ran with you manually applying the choke just right.
It ran very nicely. In fact, it ran awesome.

Sweet Baby Jesus, it ran awesome.

It even cut out and quit when I removed the wire from the wire from the solenoid. Just like you said it should.

Bravo. :salute:
Amskeptic wrote:This will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the idle circuit is clogged. I think it is crap behind the pilot jet on the right, the one that is diagonally oriented.
Though it doesn't appear to be "diagonally oriented," I'm pretty sure you mean the pilot jet that's #34 in the diagram (again, just making sure we're on the same page).......

Image

So now I'm going to take the carb off and re-clean it, because evidently I didn't do it right the first time.
Amskeptic wrote:By the way. There is no more fun than this.
Yessir, you are indeed correct. Fun, confusing and a little frustrating, but fun all the same.

I'll let you know what happens when I get the carb back on.........

Cheers,
Brad
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.

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