Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED!!!

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renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:56 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Amskeptic wrote:Try the mixture screw (little) out a lot of turns with the big idle SPEED (they call it bypass who cares?) screw way out.
I don't care what's it's called either, however in the interest of making sure I'm futzing with the right thing I just wanted to be on the same page. :thumbleft:
Amskeptic wrote:Also, do this fun experiment:
Look at the choke fast idle, it has the teeth that the screw at the top of the throttle lever touches when the choke is on. YOU WILL MAKE IT IDLE if you pull the throttle lever out just enough to clear the little teeth as you rotate the choke plate lever (it will be in the push direction).
OK, did that, and..........
Amskeptic wrote:Please let me know how nicely it ran with you manually applying the choke just right.
It ran very nicely. In fact, it ran awesome.

Sweet Baby Jesus, it ran awesome.

It even cut out and quit when I removed the wire from the wire from the solenoid. Just like you said it should.

Bravo. :salute:
Amskeptic wrote:This will prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the idle circuit is clogged. I think it is crap behind the pilot jet on the right, the one that is diagonally oriented.
Though it doesn't appear to be "diagonally oriented," I'm pretty sure you mean the pilot jet that's #34 in the diagram (again, just making sure we're on the same page).......

Image

So now I'm going to take the carb off and re-clean it, because evidently I didn't do it right the first time.
Amskeptic wrote:By the way. There is no more fun than this.
Yessir, you are indeed correct. Fun, confusing and a little frustrating, but fun all the same.

I'll let you know what happens when I get the carb back on.........

Cheers,
Brad
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.
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1977 Beetle convertible w/Bocar 34pict3 carb
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1972 Ford Bronco

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by bajaman72 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:00 pm

#34 is the idle jet. Take that out and blow it out. It should idle fine if you never touched it yet.
Projects:
1972 Deluxe Transporter (2nd Driver) 2.0L - 091, dual Dells, Bug Pack exhaust. Camper Converted
1973 Baja (another 2nd Driver &Toy) Stock 1600 DP, dual Kadrons, Stinger

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:36 am

OK, took the carb apart (again) and cleaned everything (again) even more thoroughly than the first time. Basically, I'm back where I started. The Beetle will start idle when cold, but stalls out when it warms up after about 2-2.5 minutes.

Starting points were 2.5 turns from bottom for both volume control screw and bypass screw with the aforementioned results. Unscrewed the bypass screw (big screw) another 3.5 turns (so six out total) with same results. Turned volume control screw (little guy) out another 3.5 turns (so now both out 6 turns total) with same results.

Basically, I just can't get an idle when warm. Holding the idle lever out does keep it running for a little bit while I futz with the bypass screw; idle does seem to change a little but as soon as I release the lever so it makes contact with the cam it'll stall out. Basically it just won't idle when I'm not holding the lever out a little, no matter where two screws at all.

Here's another video I made when the volume control screw was turned out 3 turns and the big screw turned out 4-5 turns. Engine is cold when it's started:

http://tinyurl.com/btejmog

Feel like I'm so close... I just don't get it.........
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.
----------
1977 Beetle convertible w/Bocar 34pict3 carb
----------
1972 Ford Bronco

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 09, 2013 12:46 pm

renobdarb wrote:OK, took the carb apart (again) and cleaned everything (again) even more thoroughly than the first time. Basically, I'm back where I started. I just don't get it.........
Pensacola internet speeds are a total joke (Comcast! "we don't care!").

How does it run with vacuum retard hose off distributor?
Brass screw looks far in the hole as did the mixture screw, in your video.
If we can verify that the carburetor is clean (it sure looks it), next step is :
A) incrementially raise the fuel level in the bowl. If the specification calls for 17mm from edge of the carb body to the fuel, raise it to 15mm.
B) Find a used German Solex 34Pict3.
ColinIwishIhadajettogetoutthereandcorrecthisthing
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:42 pm

OK, so at the very least I think it's a "warm" thing, in that we've had some warmer weather lately. More specifically, I tried again today and the engine doesn't idle for 2-3 minutes like it used to, as it's starting out at a warmer temp (the cam on the carb starts in a lower position as well).

So I'd like to try option A, Colin (the carb is clean, clean, CLEAN for sure!). How do I raise the fuel level in the bowl?

-BradwishColinhadajettogetouthereandcorrectthisthingjustasmuchasColindoes
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.
----------
1977 Beetle convertible w/Bocar 34pict3 carb
----------
1972 Ford Bronco

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 19, 2013 2:54 pm

renobdarb wrote:OK, so at the very least I think it's a "warm" thing, in that we've had some warmer weather lately. More specifically, I tried again today and the engine doesn't idle for 2-3 minutes like it used to, as it's starting out at a warmer temp (the cam on the carb starts in a lower position as well).

So I'd like to try option A, Colin (the carb is clean, clean, CLEAN for sure!). How do I raise the fuel level in the bowl?

-BradwishColinhadajettogetouthereandcorrectthisthingjustasmuchasColindoes
Idletheengineforafewminuteskeepitcooltothetouchhoweversoitdoesntevaporate-
simplyremovethefivescrewsatthetopofthecarbandremovethecoverwithchokeassy-measurefromrimtofuellevelwithfloatstillinstalled-
GotBentley?
ColinThat'llTeachYa
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

renobdarb
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by renobdarb » Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:36 pm

OK.

From what I've read many people have had problems with these Bocar carbs. I went ahead and found a used Solex. Got the Solex and stripped it down. Took the Solex to a mechanic friend who has that super-toxic Chem-Dip. Put the carb into the Chem-Dip and went home and ate an elk burger.

Three days later I went back to mechanic friend's and fished carb out of Chem-Dip. We were very careful with the Chem-Dip so as not to touch it, but being in the mere proximity of the Chem-Dip gets the smell into your clothes. Rinsed the carb thoroughly to neutralize the Chem-Dip.

Now, smelling faintly of Chem-Dip, brought the carb home and thoroughly cleaned it with carb cleaner and blew everything out really good with air. Putting everything back together and installed the Solex carb on the engine.

Same problem. It will start but won't idle. Even after several different adjustments on the big/little screws. Call me crazy but this may be an indication it isn't an issue with the carb, but I have no idea at this point. And I still smell like Chem-Dip.
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.
----------
1977 Beetle convertible w/Bocar 34pict3 carb
----------
1972 Ford Bronco

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RSorak 71Westy
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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Fri Mar 29, 2013 5:18 pm

If you think it maybe elsewhere we must start with a compression test....Does this have points? Have u adjusted them? The 1st symptom of a lack of point gap is it wont idle....
Take care,
Rick
Stock 1600 w/dual Solex 34's and header. mildly ported heads and EMPI elephant's feet. SVDA W/pertronix. 73 Thing has been sold. BTW I am a pro wrench have been fixing cars for living for over 30 yrs.

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED

Post by renobdarb » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:54 pm

OK!

So went to the procedure you suggested here...
Amskeptic wrote:A) incrementially raise the fuel level in the bowl. If the specification calls for 17mm from edge of the carb body to the fuel, raise it to 15mm.
After starting the car like normal, it ran for a minute or so and then died. I then immediately took off the top of the carb and received an important clue... the float bowl was empty. A good indication that the carb was running out of gas, therefore (of course) killing the engine.

After thinking about it a little, I went back to square one: the new fuel pump and relay I installed within the first couple weeks of getting the car. I was getting a good constant stream from the fuel line when cranking the engine, so I didn't think it could be the pump itself. So I re-wired the pump to take the relay out of the system, and bingo. The Beetle started up and ACTUALLY STAYED RUNNING long enough for me to adjust the carb. Got it idling good and took it for its first drive since late January. It still needs some fine-tuning, however at least it's running, idling, and drivable.

Turns out it's a bad fuel relay. The relay clearly works when cranking the car, but there's obviously something wrong when it switches to the "run" circuit. It apparently works intermittently at first but eventually shuts down all together, therefore shutting down the pump and starving the carb and engine of fuel.

Anyway, thanks for all your help, Colin (and everyone else..). Even though it wasn't the carb, your suggestions pointed me in the right direction to solve the problem. I feel like all of this probably would have been obvious to you had you been here to troubleshoot it yourself, but it's been a great learning experience for me. Solving the problem is pretty rewarding. And now I have a nice little pile of spare carb parts.

You're right, Colin... there's nothing more fun than this. Thanks.

Cheers,
Brad
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.
----------
1977 Beetle convertible w/Bocar 34pict3 carb
----------
1972 Ford Bronco

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:39 am

renobdarb wrote:OK!

So went to the procedure you suggested here...
Amskeptic wrote:A) incrementially raise the fuel level in the bowl.
I re-wired the pump to take the relay out of the system, and bingo.
Turns out it's a bad fuel relay.

You're right, Colin... there's nothing more fun than this. Thanks.

Cheers,
Brad
What a torture. Can you confess to your friends here how you wired the relay?
ColinCleanCarbsAreCoolToLookAt
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED

Post by renobdarb » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:10 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
What a torture. Can you confess to your friends here how you wired the relay?
ColinCleanCarbsAreCoolToLookAt
A torture, indeed!

I haven't taken a REALLY close look at it just yet but have been pretty busy over the last couple weeks. I hope to take a look at again it this weekend and CONFIRM it's a bad relay and NOT a bad wiring job before I order a new relay.

I was pretty meticulous when I installed it, though, to wire it up exactly how it's rigged up in the Blue Bus. I will report my findings here and maybe even post another video as proof that I'm not (hopefully) a complete moron.
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.
----------
1977 Beetle convertible w/Bocar 34pict3 carb
----------
1972 Ford Bronco

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED

Post by renobdarb » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:42 pm

So I am not a fool! :cheers:

Relay was hooked up correctly... I checked and double-checked, then hooked it up again (after taking a short drive to warm up the engine and make sure there was fuel in the carb bowl). It started up and idled just fine, and I immediately took a volt meter to the relay. Was getting good feed from the coil, however the post that went to the fuel pump was jumping around all over the place; it would give all sorts of readings, high and low (mostly low), but never a steady reading at all. Ultimately power just wasn't getting to the pump when the car was running. Go figure.
1978 Campmobile, 2000cc w/hydro lifters, dual Weber 44 IDF carbs (50 idle jets, 115 main jets), SVDA distributor w/Compufire.
----------
1977 Beetle convertible w/Bocar 34pict3 carb
----------
1972 Ford Bronco

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Re: Engine won't idle on newly-acquired 1977 Super... SOLVED

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:30 am

renobdarb wrote:So I am not a fool! :cheers:
FINE! I'll go it alone, then . . . :alien:

renobdarb wrote: Relay was hooked up correctly... however the post that went to the fuel pump would give never a steady reading.
Go figure.
"Made In China"?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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