Again, Raw food raid

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Lanval
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:33 pm

ruckman101 wrote:Should I bring up the questionable substances that have entered the corporate food model of production and distribution? Whatever it is they pump into milk cows to increase their production of milk? Antibiotics and such? I would point my finger there when it comes to lactose intolerance issues, and again back to the antiseptic products marketed to the home environment rendering us vulnerable to bacteria when we encounter it.


neal
No, because it would irrelevant. That there are other issues with the food supply says nothing about the obvious safety benefits of pasteurizing milk. Antibiotics in cows has nothing to do with how the milk is treated; two different problems. You're just going to have to accept that killing bacteria in milk is a good thing.

Now if you want to talk about chemicals in food supply (and milk for that matter) you can start a thread on that and I'll be happy to join your corporate-bashing over there.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by ruckman101 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:29 pm

Never mind the increasingly large segment of our population that's lactose intolerant, now why would that be? There are toxins poisoning us beyond the increasingly antibiotic resistant strains of intestinal bacteria the pasteurizing process initially protected us from.


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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:27 pm

ruckman101 wrote:Never mind the increasingly large segment of our population that's lactose intolerant, now why would that be? There are toxins poisoning us beyond the increasingly antibiotic resistant strains of intestinal bacteria the pasteurizing process initially protected us from.


neal
Totally unscientific. As a trained medievalist, I would suggest you leave behind faith and blind belief as a methodology; it didn't work in the 13th century, and it doesn't work now.

Allow me to quote you this from the National Digestive Diseases Information Clearinghouse:

"What causes lactose intolerance?
The cause of lactose intolerance is best explained by describing how a person develops lactase deficiency.
Primary lactase deficiency develops over time and begins after about age 2 when the body begins to produce less lactase. Most children who have lactase deficiency do not experience symptoms of lactose intolerance until late adolescence or adulthood.
Researchers have identified a possible genetic link to primary lactase deficiency. Some people inherit a gene from their parents that makes it likely they will develop primary lactase deficiency. This discovery may be useful in developing future genetic tests to identify people at risk for lactose intolerance.
Secondary lactase deficiency results from injury to the small intestine that occurs with severe diarrheal illness, celiac disease, Crohn's disease, or chemotherapy. This type of lactase deficiency can occur at any age but is more common in infancy."

There's no mention of pasteurization as the cause of lactose intolerance.

Here's the original link:
http://digestive.niddk.nih.gov/ddisease ... ce/#causes

If you have credible scientific evidence that pasteurization is a cause of significant issues, then bring it in, and let's talk about that. But you'll discover that, having grown up in Eugene and attended the U of O, I have an incredibly low tolerance for hippy "hey man, that's not cool" responses based on ideology (corporations/science/whatever I don't like are bad) and not in thoughtful, intelligent investigation according to the best information and practices we have.

Neal, I'm not in any way opposed to the concept that science does things that are bad; on the contrary, I'm extraordinarily unhappy about the long-term social/environmental effects of things like petrochlorate in milk, or whatever's messing with the biological development of frogs in watershed runoff areas (like Portland). But I fail to see how railing against things we don't like, in the absence of ANY kind of evidence is going to convince the people we need to convince that change is necessary. If you can't even get me to agree with you on the basis of lack of evidence, when I ALREADY agree with you in spirit, how are we going to change the minds of those don't agree with us?

Show me proof; no, show me suggestive studies that point in the direction you argue. That's what I need to follow you down this path.

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Michael L

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by ruckman101 » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:50 pm

Ach, you've attached literate to condensed efforts to communicate tersely with sly witticisms apparently a whistle only I hear for my own amusements.

The last thing I was trying to communicate was laying the blame on the pasteurization process. It's a wonderful thing and still valid. No, I was trying to lay the blame on the rampant antibiotic etc use in the corporate model of milk production, that I think have produced super strains of antibiotic resistant food toxins.


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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:56 am

ruckman101 wrote:Ach, you've attached literate to condensed efforts to communicate tersely with sly witticisms apparently a whistle only I hear for my own amusements.

The last thing I was trying to communicate was laying the blame on the pasteurization process. It's a wonderful thing and still valid. No, I was trying to lay the blame on the rampant antibiotic etc use in the corporate model of milk production, that I think have produced super strains of antibiotic resistant food toxins.


neal
Or, it was late, and I was too distracted to notice your willingness to play in the fields of the mind. No harm done; and I agree that the antibiotic abuse in our society is dysfunctional.

Michael L

*edit ~ as if ordained by a higher power (Jerry Garcia!):

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2012/0 ... t=1&f=1001

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Thu Feb 23, 2012 11:42 am


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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by ruckman101 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:38 pm

Pasteurized or raw, milk is a source of food low in causing food poisoning. Yes, pasteurized milk is apparently also an issue. So we should enact a national ban on one and not the other?

I guess it doesn't matter. A person could still purchase raw milk "pet food".


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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Randy in Maine » Thu Feb 23, 2012 7:54 pm

I am allergic to ecoli.
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:10 pm

ruckman101 wrote:Pasteurized or raw, milk is a source of food low in causing food poisoning. Yes, pasteurized milk is apparently also an issue. So we should enact a national ban on one and not the other?

I guess it doesn't matter. A person could still purchase raw milk "pet food".


neal
Neal,

I didn't understand this. Are you arguing that pasteurized milk is also a cause of food poisoning?

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Michael L

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by ruckman101 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:20 pm

As far as I know, I'm allergic to ecoli myself, I've just never, knock on wood, gotten a nasty strain of it. I raccoon all my fruits and vegetables, washing, and flesh is increasingly rarer in my diet.

Michael, I offer this quote from the article you provided a link to.

"Whether pasteurized or not, dairy products are simply not a high-risk product," said Sally Fallon Morell, president of the foundation, in a statement.

I am guilty of suggesting pasteurized milk products are just as culpable of poisoning outbreaks. I read into my argument more than the quote actually says. Even raw milk as a source of food poisoning is low.

Folks who trumpet the health values of raw milk are aware of the risks. Who then is liable in a court of law in the event of a death from food poisoning from consuming raw milk? How about in the case of melons distributed nationally? Consumer's liability still, not scrubbing the rind before cutting into it? Most people don't. Because in the past it hasn't been an issue. Does the liability lie with laxer legal definitions of fertilizer? The corporate food production and distribution model? How does an egg poison? A dirty shell we need to wash?

Don't buy it if it scares you. But to legislate it to "Pet Food" seems a bit much.


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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Sat Feb 25, 2012 12:36 am

ruckman101 wrote:As far as I know, I'm allergic to ecoli myself, I've just never, knock on wood, gotten a nasty strain of it. I raccoon all my fruits and vegetables, washing, and flesh is increasingly rarer in my diet.

Michael, I offer this quote from the article you provided a link to.

"Whether pasteurized or not, dairy products are simply not a high-risk product," said Sally Fallon Morell, president of the foundation, in a statement.

I am guilty of suggesting pasteurized milk products are just as culpable of poisoning outbreaks. I read into my argument more than the quote actually says. Even raw milk as a source of food poisoning is low.

Folks who trumpet the health values of raw milk are aware of the risks. Who then is liable in a court of law in the event of a death from food poisoning from consuming raw milk? How about in the case of melons distributed nationally? Consumer's liability still, not scrubbing the rind before cutting into it? Most people don't. Because in the past it hasn't been an issue. Does the liability lie with laxer legal definitions of fertilizer? The corporate food production and distribution model? How does an egg poison? A dirty shell we need to wash?

Don't buy it if it scares you. But to legislate it to "Pet Food" seems a bit much.


neal
Most of that stuff is just your knee-jerk resistance to the corporate nature of the current food chain. None of it has to do with pasteurization, which has been in widespread use in milk since the late 19th century. If the pasteurization process was the cause of any sorts of issues surrounding things like lactose-intolerance, we'd have seen the spike in 1912, not 2012.

As for the issue of liability, I'm all in favor of allowing the sale of raw milk; personally, I'm a big believer in the Darwin principle. People who die from easily preventable illnesses like salmonella and listeria because "raw milk is natural and better for you" totally, 100% deserve it. What I have more trouble with is the low-grade hippy-dippy morons who trade in that kind of new-age "hey, it's natural" garbage and feed it to their kids. The kids are far, FAR more likely to get sick from things like raw milk. Why should they pay the price for their parent's ignorance? Giving your kid raw milk is EXACTLY the same as using prayer instead of modern medicine to cure your child's leukemia.

And since there are a largish number of EXACTLY those kinds of morons knocking around the US (Eugene and Portland being two spots that are overrun with those idiots) I personally figure it's easier to just go ahead, and you know ~ keep the milk cleaner. Pasteurization isn't the resolution for every microbe, but it kills bacteria that kill. I'm at least as interested in getting rid of raw milk as I am in tobacco; two things we don't need around because they serve no useful purpose.

Michael L

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by dingo » Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:43 am

Im having some raw milk with my coffee this morning...i must be a moron and an idiot...heres to Darwin Salut !
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Sun Feb 26, 2012 12:00 am

dingo wrote:Im having some raw milk with my coffee this morning...i must be a moron and an idiot...heres to Darwin Salut !
Yeah, I didn't wear a helmet for years when I was bike racing... wasn't natural, y'know? But then, watching a 35 year old man screaming in pain and tears, while I looked at the fascia covering the bone of his forehead where it hit the ground, I figured ~ why not go ahead put safety first?

Helmet saved my life last year; when I came into the ER, the doctor looked at me and said, "You look like someone who was wearing a helmet." I asked him why he said that. His reply? "Because you're going to live to tell about it." Kid still has a father, wife still has husband (she may not perceive this as a victory, per se), gov't still getting their 30 pieces of silver.

If I had died because, "Hey, fuck science!" would you consider me less than a moron or idiot?



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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by denjohn » Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:19 pm

http://www.foodrenegade.com/maine-town- ... vereignty/
Sedgwick, Maine has done what no other town in the United States has done. The town unanimously passed an ordinance giving its citizens the right “to produce, process, sell, purchase, and consume local foods of their choosing.” This includes raw milk, locally slaughtered meats, and just about anything else you can imagine. It’s also a decided bucking of state and federal laws.
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Randy in Maine
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Randy in Maine » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:07 am

I will bet even money that you have never been to Sedwick, ME.

If the ordinance was ever to end up in court, it would be overturned in a heartbeat. Perhaps next time they will let just anyone perform open heart surgery?
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