Again, Raw food raid

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Velokid1
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Velokid1 » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:49 am

Mike- I already explained to you why the CDC facts you cited are irrelevant. They are irrelevant to my point, not to this thread as a whole.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by RussellK » Fri Sep 09, 2011 7:57 am

Why is the food I buy at a stand on the local farmer's front lawn unregulated but the coop's food is?

I think there should be minimum standards set and enforced. But I like an informed (informed being the key word) public making it's own choices about what it consumes. I wonder how many regulations are there to protect the economic interest of the large growers, processors and retailers.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by steve74baywin » Fri Sep 09, 2011 12:52 pm

RussellK wrote: public making it's own choices about what it consumes. I wonder how many regulations are there to protect the economic interest of the large growers, processors and retailers.
Now that's what I'm talking about.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Fri Sep 09, 2011 1:06 pm

Velokid1 wrote:Mike- I already explained to you why the CDC facts you cited are irrelevant. They are irrelevant to my point, not to this thread as a whole.
They aren't irrelevant to your point, that's the problem.

edit: I originally had a more detailed post explaining why you're wrong; I think the more appropriate answer is "whatever".

Mike

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by steve74baywin » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:15 am

Major differences between the Raw Food raid and Plastic Surgery example.
The Raw Milk one the gov is saying
Man can't consume Milk as provided in nature, the way he consumed it for 97.8% of his time on this planet consuming cow's Milk.
It is forcing man to use a man altered product instead of as nature provides it. It is not regulating how man alters the natural product milk, but saying man can't buy this natural product, he can only buy the man altered one.
The Plastic surgery one isn't saying man can't go natural and must have plastic surgery done to him, no, it is instead regulating the process of man using tools to alter the way man is naturally.
One is making illegal something provided by nature that man used for more than 7300 years before the 160 years of pasteurization.
The other is regulating the process of man doing something to alter man.
In simpler terms.
Natures way (raw milk) vs man altered milk and forcing the "man altered" milk
vs
Regulating the way man is altered (plastic surgery) vs not regulating the way man is altered.
One is making the natural illegal and only the man altered way legal, the other is regulating the process of altering man by man.

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Randy in Maine
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:40 am

Actually...

1) if you are going to sell milk to be consumed by the public, you need a license to do that.

2) If you are going to perform sugery on others, you need a license top do that.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by steve74baywin » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:56 am

Randy in Maine wrote:Actually...

1) if you are going to sell milk to be consumed by the public, you need a license to do that.

2) If you are going to perform sugery on others, you need a license top do that.

Seems pretty cut and dried to me.
If we were not discussing the validity of such things but instead either wasn't allowed to discuss or was just going to blindly accept whatever is, then I would agree with you.
But if we have the intelligence and freedom to recognize what is being discussed, then one can see the differences.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Velokid1 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:18 am

Randy in Maine wrote:Actually...

1) if you are going to sell milk to be consumed by the public, you need a license to do that.


What does the law say is considered "the public"? Anyone other than the individual, or can you share with your wife? Your neighbors? Can you only share if no money is exchanged? Where's the legal limit, anyone know?

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:14 pm

This might be a little biased from the National Milk Producers Organization, but you might as well read it.....this generally speaks about health outbreaks from consuming raw milk.

http://nmpf.org/washington_watch/standa ... wmilk#News

Although it varies by state, it is sometimes OK to sell raw milk at the farm of production, but not to the general public at a retail store. I am not sure what the CA law allows.
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Velokid1
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Velokid1 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:23 pm

Thanks Randy. I may be naive, but I don't doubt the validity of those reports of outbreaks. The corporate-sponsored research that I distrust is the research downplaying the risks and/or reduced nutrient density of conventionally produced milk. But there is no doubt that raw milk has inherent risks that require special care and precautionary measures. I prefer the convenience of store-bought milk myself, though I very rarely buy non-organic milk.

I'm surprised that there isn't federal regulation on raw milk that "trumps" the state laws. I guess I'm just so used to that dynamic existing in the medical marijuana sphere.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by steve74baywin » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:24 pm

I can see where mass producing milk and shipping it far can be be problematic.
I can see the usefulness in pasteurization.
But just because I recognize those two things doesn't mean
it is okay to prohibit someone from buying or selling raw milk.
If it is a good idea let those who believe so do it.
Prohibiting the sale from a willing seller and a willing buyer sounds so anti-American.
Doing so for our safety sounds like someone thinks we are their possession and it is in their best interest to protect their investment.

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Randy in Maine
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:32 pm

Been here? Pick a state. It is from 2004 I think though....

http://www.realmilk.com/milk-laws-1.html
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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Sylvester » Mon Sep 12, 2011 12:37 pm

Randy in Maine wrote:Been here? Pick a state. It is from 2004 I think though....

http://www.realmilk.com/milk-laws-1.html
Keep your raw milk from us in Georgia, ya'll.

GEORGIA

Summary:

The state has banned the stale of raw milk for human consumption through its interpretation of the Georgia Dairy Act of 1980 and also through its adoption of the 2003 version of the Pasteurized Milk Ordinance.
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue, I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod, The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Velokid1 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:02 pm

ARIZONA

Summary:

Arizona permits the sale of raw milk and raw milk products as long as they carry the required warning label. Their sale can take place on the farm and in grocery stores. Farmers selling raw milk and cream must obtain a producer-distributor license. Selling other raw dairy products requires obtaining a producer-manufacturer license in addition. There must be state approved bottling equipment on the farm. There are currently two licensed farms selling raw milk and raw milk products in the state.
As usual, in Arizona you can do almost anything you want. Drive an ATV on the highway to work? Heck yeah, why not. Carry a concealed weapon without a permit? Shoot, knock yerself out! Smoke pot with your wife and watch Seinfeld reruns? We've got a room reserved for you at the penitentiary. ;)

Back on-topic... my wife manages a health food store and I'm pretty sure they stopped carrying raw milk after years of selling it. I'm not sure why.

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Re: Again, Raw food raid

Post by Lanval » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:21 pm

Velokid1 wrote:
ARIZONA

Summary:

Arizona permits the sale of raw milk and raw milk products as long as they carry the required warning label. Their sale can take place on the farm and in grocery stores. Farmers selling raw milk and cream must obtain a producer-distributor license. Selling other raw dairy products requires obtaining a producer-manufacturer license in addition. There must be state approved bottling equipment on the farm. There are currently two licensed farms selling raw milk and raw milk products in the state.
As usual, in Arizona you can do almost anything you want. Drive an ATV on the highway to work? Heck yeah, why not. Carry a concealed weapon without a permit? Shoot, knock yerself out! Smoke pot with your wife and watch Seinfeld reruns? We've got a room reserved for you at the penitentiary. ;)

Back on-topic... my wife manages a health food store and I'm pretty sure they stopped carrying raw milk after years of selling it. I'm not sure why.
Probably due to this:

"In 1996, one child died and 66 others became ill from drinking Odwalla unpasteurized apple juice, which was contaminated with the potentially lethal bacterium E. coli O157:H7. Since then, many people, especially parents of small children, have had something else to worry about: whether fresh juices, whose ingredients are so much more healthful than those of a can of soda, are safe to drink.

The 1996 incident brought pressure from public health proponents for pasteurization of all juices. In response, the Food and Drug Administration proposed a rule in April to require all fresh juices, both fruit and vegetable, to be processed to remove harmful bacteria -- through pasteurization or other means."

From a NYT article on new regs for raw juice in NY: http://www.nytimes.com/1998/07/01/dinin ... -tell.html

Chris, you can do pretty much anything you want to your friends, in terms of food (well, not hemlock juice ~ that'll get you a stretch in the bighouse). What you can't do is create a co-op as an end-run around state and fed regs for selling raw dairy. Those Raw Food guys are playing politics; if they really wanted to sell raw dairy, they would be abiding with the regs, and arguing for changing those regs.

I wouldn't say that if I didn't believe it; a very close friend of mine works at as a microbrewer in Oregon, and works tirelessly to change the regulations on beer production, serving and delivery in Oregon, because the state regs are biased in favor of the big boys. You know what he doesn't do? He doesn't tell the people and the gov't to screw off, act as if rules are for other people, and cry and whine when he gets slapped with a penalty. The Rawsome guys are scum; they wrap themselves in the flag of righteousness when in fact they're nothing more than people who think they're above the rules.

Mike

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