Is America Conservative?

[turk]

And what does it mean? Is it better to be liberal? How about Libertarian? I think, based on my very little knowledge, it's somewhere in the middle. I think it was libertarian first, conservative second, and liberal last. That's a stab in the dark. I would like to hear what others think.

[ruckman101]

Progressive.


neal

[turk]

I'll buy that. Unfortunately some have recouped that label exclusively, and won't share it. For example there are no "progressive conservatives" or "progressive libertarians". Maybe that could change! Or maybe there's a fourth group that should emerge: "progressive pragmatists". This just a thought. Shoot.

[BellePlaine]

Generally, I think that a liberal is someone prefers for the government to oversee the general affairs of commerce and to look out for the general wellbeing of the people, meaning the unadvantaged people. Conservatives perhaps prefer a more government that is more, I don't know, like it was in the 1980's. They say that they want less government, but they also want a strong military to press our foreign interests, they want to stop you from taking drugs, and they want the federal government not allow you to have an abortion. It's kind of fuzzy and contradictory.

A libertarian wants a government that takes as few axiomatic beliefs as possible. That is, a libertarian doesn't believe that most things should be opinioned "good or bad" but that they just "are". Not necessarily, the state and local governments, but the federal government should remain neutral toward different groups of it's own people. It's too complicated, and it's ineffective anyway, to ask the government to keep the activities of its people regulated towards liberal or conservative skewed form of balance. So, on domestic policy, the only self-evident belief that a libertarian can justify the government's involvement is to protect a person's right to the property that has been acquired ethically.

[BellePlaine]

Sorry, I just re-read the title and I see that I anwsered the wrong question. I think that America thinks of itself as having liberarian-like values but is trying to buy them via progessive means.

[hambone]

What kind of question is this? Is white red? Does an amoeba cry? Cubs-woo?
America is just a state of mind.

[BellePlaine]

What kind of question is this? Is white red? Does an amoeba cry? Cubs-woo?
America is just a state of mind.

White is red... and orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, and violet.

[hambone]

And so is "America". So is anything really, fractals of consciousness. Labeling is a local train with all the stops, getting nowhere fast.

[BellePlaine]

Point taken.

[steve74baywin]

Yep, this is a topic that could go many places.... I read it late last night and didn't know where to go, where to begin. And I still don't.
I will save more of my two cents for later on perhaps.
Something I also touch base on in political discussions is "words", Words end up having different meanings over time and mean different things to many people. In fact many of us believe this is a major part of the problem. The conversation gets all messed up because the words mean different things to different people. It is like the tower of babal has hit was when it comes to things political. I have heard the term "word magic" get used. It is in reference to how it is used to shape and control people.
Already in this discussion it was touched base upon that people say they are one thing, but don't really fall into that.
To a Libertarian this topic could get good. Studies and the "Worlds smallest political quiz" shows most people are Libertarian, however they have associated themselves with one of the two major parties, like they pick the one that seems to fit them the most, but when asked if they want to decide things for others in a quiz they say no, and they say they do not want to tell others what they can and cannot do. Funniest thing going is both political parties have changed so much from the beginning. Years back the term liberal was used by what now is the Republican party.

[BellePlaine]

Somewhat to your point, Steve, I get the feeling that a lot of people (maybe not here, I don't know) feel like liberals and conservatives are polar opposites from each other. In other words, if something is appealing for a liberal then it is repulsive for a conservative and vice versa. Perhaps, this is true in the narrow sense, but if you take a wider look at it, typically I feel like both groups are using the same tool, government, to their advantage so they are all "liberals". Edit: I mean that they are all for a powerful, "liberal" government. I didn't mean to make that last sentence sound so rude. /edit. This is where I think a libertarian is the opposite of both of those groups.

[steve74baywin]

Somewhat to your point, Steve, I get the feeling that a lot of people (maybe not here, I don't know) feel like liberals and conservatives are polar opposites from each other. In other words, if something is appealing for a liberal then it is repulsive for a conservative and vice versa. Perhaps, this is true in the narrow sense, but if you take a wider look at it, typically I feel like both groups are using the same tool, government, to their advantage so they are all "liberals". This is where I think a libertarian is the opposite of both of those groups.

Yes

The two parties appear as opposites, they have a few small things that one can point to and say opposite. Most of those issues shouldn't even be left up to the government to decide. Most of those issue don't ever get resolved anyway, if they do come up for vote the bills are full of so much junk and you get reps from either side voting either way.

I don't know much of this guy but like this quote.
Robert A. Heinlein
"The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire."
As a Libertarian we believe both parties are for getting the government to make things the way they want. If you have a religious belief abortion is bad, vote the repubs in this time to get the mob to make a law to then use guns to get your desire to happen. If you think big business isn't letting the workers have enough money, vote dem to get the mob to make a law to use guns to force business to give more money to the workers. The problem with this as I see it is several things. One you will get an endless number of laws wanting to force things the way people see fit...Too many people, too many belief's. Secondly, using guns to force your will and idea upon others doesn't seem like a good thing.


Most people probably do want the same thing. To be left alone to enjoy there life is on top of the list. Most do not want crime, violence, hurting or murder. Most people might be conservative in many senses of the word but also liberal in many senses of the word.

This topic is so up my alley I could ramble on, and on, and on.
Let me stick to what I said a few post back, that is to wait.
I will comment to specific things instead of writing a novel based upon what I think might come up in the discussion.

[turk]

How about "progressive"? I used to go in the "progressive" bins at record stores a lot. Or "avant guard". Then it became "alternative" in the 90's, though I knew it was just a crappy new label for something in order to sell it. But I wasn't interested in those labels at that time anyway. I would listen to what other people turned me on to and decide from that. But these labels are kinda important for the shopper at some record store. I see how it matters in a store. I don't think it works in politics as much. These labels are a bane of discussion of pretty important stuff. Like BP said it creates the situation where a division of ideas is drawn like a line in the sand and the other side is the opponent. But when a label like "progressive" is exclusively claimed by one side, that is false advertising I think. What makes that side "progressive" and the other supposedly the inverse? Conservative isn't any less progressive than liberal. They work in different logics. Conservatism wants progress through its theories of human nature, as much as liberalism wants the same through its theories. I think both have some points to make on their theories. Progressive liberals are a little more theoretical than conservatives though. Conservatives don't bring up as many variables. They assume some things are kinda the way they are, like the law of gravity, -as a metaphor. And with that in mind, humans and dogs or cats aren't interchangeable - as a hyperbole to illustrate-, yet. In the meanwhile, some things work satisfactorily. With the "progressive" liberals, it will never end. There will, always be someone, or some thing's "rights" to consider, no matter how ridiculous it may seem now. That's how I see "progressive"/ It will always be the next step in something. But I'm just a dude at a keyboard who would rather not so this marvelous experiment can continue without getting too nuts.