Let's examine the Ryan Budget

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Lanval
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by Lanval » Wed Apr 20, 2011 11:44 am

turk wrote:The myth of pulling one's self up by his own boot-straps is as true now as it was back 20, 50, 100, 200 or more years ago; which is to say, with more people and more stuff, and more paths to take, it's even truer now.
Myth and true have opposite meanings. Myths cannot be true, inherently.

Perhaps you mean "belief" or "theory"?

L.

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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by Lanval » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:02 pm

Amskeptic wrote: 3) It is a myth. For every Horatio Alger myth story, you find that a support network allowed these "trail-blazing individuals" to get a leg up. Fact is, there are "indians" and there are "chiefs", they all deserve lives of dignity. It is arrogant to the extreme to declare that "individual initiative" is worth 85 million while a hard-working gardener can't feed his family.
Colin
Most people don't understand the extent to which most HA "stories" in real life aren't meaningfully about "pulling yourself up". For every one person who does that, ten more got where they are by connection, status and association. Bill Gates is typical of this; people talk about him as a self-made guy. Yeah, if by self made you mean with a Dad so rich that a) you can afford Harvard, and b) don't need to worry about dropping out of Harvard.

In any event, my historical studies of history have over and over reinforced one elemental truth; the wealthy and powerful will try to extend their control, wealth and power indefinitely; the only force that's ever stopped them is the active resistance or violence of the masses. This is followed by a redistribution of wealth and power, followed by a long, slow slog back up the same hill.

As long as the wealthy continue to centralize wealth an power among an ever smaller group, they run the real risk of creating the circumstances for their own downfall. Not guaranteed to be sure; it was the Black Death that finalized a historical movement towards a business class/middle class and the end of feudal society, but that movement was already underway, as sumptuary laws in the 14th century show.

Which brings us to my favorite founding father: Jefferson. "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants." Indeed.

L.

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turk
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by turk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:03 pm

I don't share your pessimistic outlook. I see the good and the bad and (the ugly) :geek: , all things considered things ain't too bad. But it looks like they will get worse, not better, for a while. Raise taxes (on the rich)? Well , if you say so (if that is your "plan"). I think the total pool of taxable income in the U.S. seen as a pie-chart might show that most of it is in the middle brackets. I could be wrong. People with high incomes have the resources to avoid taxation by sheltering large sums of money and hiring accountants full time. Anyway, if someone has a pie-chart of a reliable source it might be illuminating. I'll search for one. I don't buy into the class-war kabuki, as you are aware.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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ruckman101
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:34 pm

Top one percent pulling 90 percent of income. Assuredly not mostly across the middle brackets. We've had thirty years of "lower taxes create jobs". It isn't working, unless you are overseas. The wealth is being hoarded, not reinvested.


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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by Lanval » Wed Apr 20, 2011 12:41 pm

turk wrote: I don't buy into the class-war kabuki, as you are aware.
Historical reality is what it is.

L.

edit: I feel obligated to point out that using "kabuki" as a pejorative in this way is vaguely racist. "theater" (or theatre if you prefer British English) would work fine without bringing race/culture in to the mix.

Edward Said is good to read in this context. Oscar Wilde also had an interesting essay about how the East/Asia is used as exotic or different in order to justify our sense of self as "normal".

L.

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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by steve74baywin » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:10 pm

Bleyseng wrote:I have to look at the Suriname model from my experience, where taxation is lax, law enforcement is lax. Imagine back to the wild west days and you have it! People take advantage of this so scams, stealing and just dishonest practices are rampant. We have too many people in the USA and going backwards to some Pie in the Sky small government is a joke! Yes, if you want that I say move to Alaska into the wild.

more people, more laws.
There is a percentage of people like you say that do scams, steal and are dishonest. There are some of us who say these people gravitate to government. We also say they are there now. The problem we see is if you give a monopoly on the right to initiate force to bring about a desire to a small group of people, those who like to initiate force for their gain will naturally gravitate to that monopoly.
Example, two business owners in the same town who have the same type of business. Business man A wants his business to thrive but will only use honest ways, putting forth his best effort. Business man B would like to thrive and has no problem being dishonest, he would even use force to put you out of business. Business man B who would use force is more likely to go to a group like the government who has the monopoly on the right to initiate force to get it's way. He has laws made to stack the deck in his favor. Laws enforced by guns. Business man A is still just trying to get his to exceed by honest moral means.

Editing to add this.
A small limited government could take care of your concerns. One that protects people from stealing, hurting and killing others. A very limited Libertarian type would cover your biggest fears while preventing my biggest fears.
You may need more police for more people, but not more laws for more people.

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turk
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by turk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:28 pm

"top 1% pulling 90% of income"

Well, it should be easy to find those guys since that would be 370,000,000 X .01 = 3,700,000 people with 90% of the income. They must pay most of the taxes then? I think most taxes are paid by the people making between 75,000 and 300,000 a year. They are probably the heavy lifters. Of course the brackets higher pay a good chunk of the total income tax revenue also. So, let's do the math. Here is a graph from the IRS: [album]112[/album]
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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ruckman101
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 1:56 pm

Oh, you meant taxes paid. A disproportionate burden are paid by the poor. Factor in the loopholes. That graph I suspect only reflects what is supposed to be paid, not actually paid. Ideal vs. reality. Factor in local, state income sales taxes, and things skew even further.


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turk
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by turk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 2:32 pm

People making less than 20,000 basically aren't paying income taxes if they file for returns. Ya' know that Kabuki of holding on to your money til the next year, then giving it back, which really makes no sense, but it's symbolic of the government ? Is that the poor people you are talking about?
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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ruckman101
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Apr 20, 2011 4:02 pm

Regardless, sales taxes are still levied in most states, often state income taxes, too.


neal
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turk
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by turk » Wed Apr 20, 2011 5:19 pm

Why do GM and GE restructure and invest in overseas production plants, taking jobs and production away from U.S. soil (where they have to pay the corporate taxes, employee benefits and wages of this country)? Yet if I'm not mistaken the government bailed out GM for several hundred billion at this point, which leaves (supposedly) the tax-payers here footing that bill. Off-topic, but I think it's a good question.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by steve74baywin » Wed Apr 20, 2011 6:52 pm

turk wrote:Why do GM and GE restructure and invest in overseas production plants, taking jobs and production away from U.S. soil (where they have to pay the corporate taxes, employee benefits and wages of this country)? Yet if I'm not mistaken the government bailed out GM for several hundred billion at this point, which leaves (supposedly) the tax-payers here footing that bill. Off-topic, but I think it's a good question.
It doesn't make sense does it. To find out why the companies do this I would start like this.
Who makes the decision for these two companies? The CEO or who appoints CEO's, which probably is the board, the board is appointed by who, the largest investors? Who are the actually owners of said companies? Probably a few large investment firms. Who owns those firms?
That would be a start to answering your question.
So lets say the answer to the above turns out to be a few international banking firms, or whatever. Why did our government give them money?
It would seem like the action by the companies would hurt our economy.
It would seem like the action by government would hurt our economy.
Many know I believe the politicians are controlled by the same owners of the companies, same people who own the news media and banks. So all owned by the same and both did an action that would hurt our economy.
Pretty discouraging eh!

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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by steve74baywin » Thu Apr 21, 2011 8:16 am

steve74baywin wrote:
turk wrote:Why do GM and GE restructure and invest in overseas production plants, taking jobs and production away from U.S. soil (where they have to pay the corporate taxes, employee benefits and wages of this country)? Yet if I'm not mistaken the government bailed out GM for several hundred billion at this point, which leaves (supposedly) the tax-payers here footing that bill. Off-topic, but I think it's a good question.
It doesn't make sense does it. To find out why the companies do this I would start like this.
Who makes the decision for these two companies? The CEO or who appoints CEO's, which probably is the board, the board is appointed by who, the largest investors? Who are the actually owners of said companies? Probably a few large investment firms. Who owns those firms?
That would be a start to answering your question.
So lets say the answer to the above turns out to be a few international banking firms, or whatever. Why did our government give them money?
It would seem like the action by the companies would hurt our economy.
It would seem like the action by government would hurt our economy.
Many know I believe the politicians are controlled by the same owners of the companies, same people who own the news media and banks. So all owned by the same and both did an action that would hurt our economy.
Pretty discouraging eh!
Might I add the above is pretty hard to do. To find out who actually owns the shares that have the voting rights, who gets to appoint the board members and actually are setting the direction of a company is very hard to do. The information available to us sorta stops at a certain level, they do not deny these shares exist, they say they do not have to make them public, so they rarely are.
Do not forget, these shares are not the same as the ones people trade everyday on wall street, those shares are just a paper representing a fictitious piece. Sorta like our dollar bill. You get a mass of people to believe in it, and that makes it so.
Will anyone try to find out who owns Microsoft? I could use help, I'm not getting too far.

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turk
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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by turk » Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:25 pm

steve74baywin wrote:
Will anyone try to find out who owns Microsoft? I could use help, I'm not getting too far.
I have not tried to find it but wouldn't it be the biggest shareholders? link I don't know how the corporate constitution of Microsoft is divided. Wouldn't that be written in a prospectus to the shareholders? Not that it needs to be published, but maybe it is.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Let's examine the Ryan Budget

Post by steve74baywin » Tue Apr 26, 2011 6:54 am

turk wrote:
steve74baywin wrote:
Will anyone try to find out who owns Microsoft? I could use help, I'm not getting too far.
I have not tried to find it but wouldn't it be the biggest shareholders? link I don't know how the corporate constitution of Microsoft is divided. Wouldn't that be written in a prospectus to the shareholders? Not that it needs to be published, but maybe it is.
I haven't found it yet, I stopped after a few minutes the other day. I will probably spend more time looking in a bit.

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