Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

[Lanval]

So, continue lecturing us, so we are enlightened further by your remarkable superiority.

again with the attacks on me on rather than on my ideas.

Turk ~ in the above section you offer little or no explanation of why I'm wrong, or any outside evidence that anyone else might agree with you. Instead, you give an opinion that treats everything I say and the evidence of other important thinkers as if it were beneath you to recognize, let alone discuss.

And then you call me arrogant.

*****

as an answer to your assertion; my point is that the preservation of self that is innate in all animals is leavened in humans by a sense that there is considerable value to be derived from helping others, even when there's no direct benefit to themselves. It's why we take care of and listen to village elders even though they don't contribute to society in material value. Or used to, anyway.

*****

You needn't respond to me here or elsewhere; with nothing to offer beyond insults, I see no point in attempting a dialogue with you.

L.

[turk]

Who's doing the name calling? I asked you a question. That's not an attack.

[BellePlaine]

The problem with greed = natural is that there are plenty of instance of self-sacrifice at zero benefit.

L.

Wouldn't that be called "love"? I'm not so sure that the sacrifice is a zero benefit if it's done for love.

[turk]

It's not self-sacrifice if it's coerced by authority. The connection being the sub-topic of the initial topic, which is nature tends to seek survival generally, that is a natural inclination, and humans are a part of nature. So, self-interest is natural, and so is greed. Self-sacrifice can be interpreted likewise, and I don't see it as a zero-sum benefit. But, if it's the government doing the sacrifice, it's not the self, thus not self-sacrifice. THAT is "not natural". It is not choice.

[chitwnvw]

Turk has a point, doing your duty for country now makes you a chump. Be it paying your fair share or fighting to defend it.

[turk]

Oh, that's good. YOU CALLING ME A CHUMP? LOL

[turk]

A Marine is coming over here shortly. A veteran of Iraq.

[Lanval]

According to MSN money, GE made 14 billion dollars in profit, yet paid no taxes. In fact, they were given a 3 billion tax benefit (whatever that is).

Double bonus: apparently they spent millions in lobbying to avoid paying tax. Oh, and they've cut their worker base in America by 20% over the last 9 years, while adding to jobs overseas.

Hooray for corporations!

Here's the link:
http://money.msn.com/top-stocks/post.as ... 49588e90f6

L.

[turk]

Yeah, there's some comments on that here

[Lanval]

Oh, my apologies ~ I had forgotten that was Colin's starting point. Here, since you can't be bothered to do research on your own apparently, something to chew on from a GAO report three years ago:

"IRS records show that, as of September 30, 2007, over 1.6 million businesses owed over $58 billion in unpaid federal payroll taxes, including interest and penalties. Some of these businesses took advantage of the existing tax enforcement and administration system to avoid fulfilling or paying federal tax obligations--thus abusing the federal tax system. Over a quarter of payroll taxes are owed by businesses with more than 3 years (12 tax quarters) of unpaid payroll taxes"

Hooray for businesses and corporations! Looking out for the little guy once again!

[yondermtn]

uh, payroll taxes are very different than income taxes.

payroll taxes are paid regardless of profit.

[Amskeptic]

uh, payroll taxes are very different than income taxes.

payroll taxes are paid regardless of profit.

The point here is that businesses sometimes do not pay them so they can use the money elsewhere, sort of like unreported income.
This is true of several large corporations and even state governments that refused to fund pension obligations where they *could have made self-sustaining* investment returns.

We have on-the-record corporate malfeasance, yondermtn, that should be filling prisons with those self-centered greedy bastards. Why do we instead fill the prisons with the self-medicating despairing victims of above malfeasance.
Colin

[yondermtn]

The unfortunate reality is that much of those unpaid payroll taxes are coming from small businesses who can't afford to pay them.

[Lanval]

Yondermtn,

Do you have any evidence to back that up? I'd like to see a link. I don't have time to read the full 50pg report from the GAO, but I actually doubt that is true for one reason only:

Typically, being in violation of the law is more dangerous for small business owners than large. That's because small business owners don't have the means to battle the IRS or other gov't entities; big companies do. Thus they run a conversely greater risk, for smaller rewards.

Here's an example of the type of people I'm talking about:http://www.ocregister.com/news/nguyen-2 ... taxes.html

Note that they were diverting money for their own use; they weren't broke, far from it. They just didn't want to pay money they could spend on themselves.



As for the difference between income tax and payroll tax, my question to you is this: Is it ethical to refuse to pay the cost of doing business? I would think that if you're a true "free market" supporter than you would agree with me in saying:

"If they can't cover the cost of doing business, then they should go out of business so that someone who is more efficient (alternatively less greedy) can take over"

Is that a fair assessment?

L.

[yondermtn]

Do you have any evidence to back that up?
Sorry, I do not. I was using personal experience.(I file a lot of payroll taxes)

Is it ethical to refuse to pay the cost of doing business?
No. I do think there should be some way for a struggling business to get back on their feet, but you're right, it is a cost of doing business that needs to be paid.

Is that a fair assessment?
Yeah, pretty fair. I think the IRS' practice of collecting penalties and interest does a good job.(at least as far as small business goes.)


I think it's important to note that IRS has acknowledged that corporations owe $58 billion in unpaid payroll taxes. Whereas the many large corporations who don't pay income taxes don't have a tax liability. It's not like they are not paying their bill. They're not getting a bill at all. That is where my concern is.

Check this link: http://dailybail.com/home/bernie-sander ... iders.html

10 worst corporate income tax avoiders.

1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

8.) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.