Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

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ruckman101
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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 10:05 am

Isn't greed one of those seven deadly sins? While I do believe in karma, the wheels of justice spin at a frustratingly slow clip it often seems. Now, to get big government of the backs of something, Republicans are suggesting a large budget cut for the IRS collections department (incidentally hugely supported by conservative think tanks funded by corporations like Koch Industries). Nudge nudge, wink wink, say no more. Why pay taxes if there are no repercussions when you don't?


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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by Velokid1 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:29 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Back to the focus of this discussion. Hippiewannabee, answer me this, is it fair that the top 10% holds 63% of our nation's wealth? Is it fair that our "high corporate tax rate" is no burden at all when the truth is that they are paying LESS THAN EVER. Answer this directly.
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I think one key here is to not think of this in terms of what is "fair" in Capitalism. Because, to many, in Capitalism there IS no fair; fair doesn't belong. Whatever you earn, win or legally take from another is rightfully yours, if you're governing yourself by the Capitalism rulebook.

Some of us tend to think of it more in terms of a community, a team, or a sinking boat. What is truly fair when you assume that all parties involved are mutually and equally concerned with the greater good of the group? If turk, Colin and myself on adrift on the Atlantic in a life raft and we have 10 loaves of bread and 10 gallons of water to divide between ourselves, why on Earth would anyone consider it fair that Colin take 8 loaves and 8 gallons of water?

Even if Colin's original contribution when the group set sail onto the ocean was 8 loaves and 8 gallons, is it really smart or fair for him to take all his bread and water and let turk and I perish? I think his chances of surviving may diminish were he to find himself alone rather than in the company of friends.

It's a loose analogy but hopefully you can see my point. Life isn't a basketball game where you spank the hell out of all your friends on the court, and at the end of the evening everyone walks home having had a good time. This is life or death, and we're talking about more than individual lives... the wellness of our country is at stake. Things are going south in a huge hurry and yet you have corporations (and their cheerleaders) smugly refusing to give "more than their share," though they had no problem at all with taking more than their share.

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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by Velokid1 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 11:37 am

ruckman101 wrote:Why pay taxes if there are no repercussions when you don't?


neal
Indeed. Isn't it curious that we will throw a man in jail for drinking too much before driving, or for using a dangerous drug, but when corporations (or business tycoons individually) are caught cheating on their taxes to the tune of MILLIONS of dollars, they suffer only insignificant consequences?

Personal liberty is taken very seriously. Petty theft is taken very seriously, too (steal a TV from someone's house, go to jail). But corporate theft... well, that's not so bad. You're going to have to pay those taxes back, mister!

"Well, can I stay out of jail if I take this television back to my neighbor?"

"No, son. You need to be held responsible for your actions! Ninety days in jail and 36 months probation for you!"

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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by BellePlaine » Tue Mar 29, 2011 12:52 pm

Velokid1 wrote:
I think one key here is to not think of this in terms of what is "fair" in Capitalism. Because, to many, in Capitalism there IS no fair; fair doesn't belong. Whatever you earn, win or legally take from another is rightfully yours, if you're governing yourself by the Capitalism rulebook.
What about risk? That's at the foundation of capitalism; what you describe as winning or legally taking from another, I call taking a risk. Calculated risk taking has value in a community and the risk takers should be rewarded if their bet pays off. Of course, the opposite must be true when a bet doesn't pay off. Unfortunately, this is not always the case and sometimes corporations win for losing; for that I hold the government accountable. So until the risk is put back into the market, we don't have a true capitalistic system.

Velokid1 wrote: Some of us tend to think of it more in terms of a community, a team, or a sinking boat. What is truly fair when you assume that all parties involved are mutually and equally concerned with the greater good of the group? If turk, Colin and myself on adrift on the Atlantic in a life raft and we have 10 loaves of bread and 10 gallons of water to divide between ourselves, why on Earth would anyone consider it fair that Colin take 8 loaves and 8 gallons of water?

Even if Colin's original contribution when the group set sail onto the ocean was 8 loaves and 8 gallons, is it really smart or fair for him to take all his bread and water and let turk and I perish? I think his chances of surviving may diminish were he to find himself alone rather than in the company of friends.

It's a loose analogy but hopefully you can see my point. Life isn't a basketball game where you spank the hell out of all your friends on the court, and at the end of the evening everyone walks home having had a good time. This is life or death, and we're talking about more than individual lives... the wellness of our country is at stake. Things are going south in a huge hurry and yet you have corporations (and their cheerleaders) smugly refusing to give "more than their share," though they had no problem at all with taking more than their share.
Just for fun, what if instead of Velo, turk, and Colin on this raft it was your dogs between ten gallons of water and ten loaves of bread? Dogs operate under nature's rules, right? While dogs are opportunistic but I wouldn't consider them greedy. So what would happen? One dog would probably take more then his fair share, but not more then he needs. He's not smug; he's just being a dog. I can see, however, from the view point of the other two dogs that the fed dog is a fucking greedy bastard not thinking about the greater good. The greater good is just a matter of perspective.
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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 29, 2011 2:31 pm

I ran my own business for a decade and paid my taxes . . . gladly. I paid into FICA FUCA FUKU SS WC whatever. Somehow I felt grateful for my employees and wanted to make sure that they were covered.

I did my own taxes and kept track of each asset through the depreciation schedules with careful record-keeping. I absolutely do not buy the excuses from these company presidents that they were just so unaware of the accounting "errors" that always came up shorting the rest of us Americans. Tax time is an excellent time to pay attention and spot trends and compare to prior years, and only a fool would be so far removed as to claim "I had no idea we chiseled the IRS out of 1.4 billion dollars, I'll have to talk to our accountant." Liars.
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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by Velokid1 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:43 pm

You make a good point about risk/reward, but I disagree that the wealthy multiply their fortune by assuming risk greater than does a working class person. The reality is that the wealthy often rig the game in such a way that they are virtually guaranteed to either expand their fortune or break even on every new venture. And they rig the game so that a would-be competitor of modest means has very little chance of succeeding.

It's not about risk. What they do isn't risky.

A guy making $35K per year working at the Maytag factory and decides he wants more for his family and invests $10,000 in a new vacuum repair shop... THAT is risk.

Or... the guy who makes $18K per year working at the college who decides he wants more for his family and invests $30K in a medical marijuana dispensary license bid, only to find that Big Money has successfully lobbied the State Department of Health Services to adopt rules that (a) exclude any individual who has ever filed for bankruptcy and (b) require every applicant to have $150,000 capital in the bank in order to be in the running.

Not an unusual scenario there ^^. The little guy should have seen it coming, right?

As for the dog scenario... my analogy was loose, but at least it involved humans and not dogs! ;)

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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by BellePlaine » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:25 pm

Velokid1 wrote:
A guy making $35K per year working at the Maytag factory and decides he wants more for his family and invests $10,000 in a new vacuum repair shop... THAT is risk.

Or... the guy who makes $18K per year working at the college who decides he wants more for his family and invests $30K in a medical marijuana dispensary license bid, only to find that Big Money has successfully lobbied the State Department of Health Services to adopt rules that (a) exclude any individual who has ever filed for bankruptcy and (b) require every applicant to have $150,000 capital in the bank in order to be in the running.

Not an unusual scenario there ^^. The little guy should have seen it coming, right?
I guess that you would have to trust that government had the majority of their constituents' best interests in mind when they adopted new regulations; but in reality, it's conceivable that those regulations were written with strings attached. Government is supposed to work for us, not for "Big Money". I can't blame these corporations for trying to get away with the shit that we've allowed them to get away with before. But I can blame our government, who we elected, when they put their own bank account ahead of the common good. It's frustrating to me that we hate Big Money when government could stop them dead in their tracks. No more favors, no more exemptions, no more choosing winners/losers. Big Money is a problem, but government is the bigger problem.


Velokid1 wrote: As for the dog scenario... my analogy was loose, but at least it involved humans and not dogs! ;)
I know, sorry about that. As I was writing, I was thinking back to our "sneaky little fucker" thread from a year or two back.
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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:43 pm

The corporations are writing the legislation Republicans get voted into law. http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Home.

ALEC is where Scott Walker, along with a host of other Republican governors, scared up the union busting ploys currently on the agenda. Back to a class war. Currently government is working for Big Money, not the working, poor, or middle class. Constituents be damned, unless they're members of the elite.


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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:59 pm

Well I'm the middle class and I'm a constituent. Ya' think everyone thinks like you do? I've got news for ya'. You're preaching doesn't persuade my opinion. I'm not alone. Intelligent people agree with me. See for yourself. Talk to them. Are you up to it?
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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:12 pm

I don't think it's just "big money" supporting the roll back of public sector union bargaining rights (which isn't the death knell of unions). It's exaggerated for media consumption and effect. It's not the end of unions at all. Many middle class people see the problem in this. It's happening world-wide as I have already pointed out. I've also pointed out the rationale to ad
nauseam, even historically, and with documentation and proof for you.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:22 pm

ALEC aims to model 1,000 bills a year, on average 18 percent get passed after republican legislators pick them up. Corporate elite friendly. No preaching, fact.


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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:35 pm

BellePlaine wrote: I can't blame these corporations for trying to get away with the shit that we've allowed them to get away with before. But I can blame our government, who we elected, when they put their own bank account ahead of the common good. It's frustrating to me that we hate Big Money when government could stop them dead in their tracks.
Big Money is a problem, but government is the bigger problem.

This is the dreadfully sad conclusion that spells trouble for our country. This is the end-result of decades of mind-fucking that ramped up under Reagan, and his simplistic treasonous denouncement of our Representative Democracy as the "enemy" while we worship the bastards who try to get away with the shit.

No, BellePlaine, just as our government was designed and created to SERVE its constituents, We The People! it indeed does now serve, it still serves, it exists to serve, it s.e.r.v.e.s! It does not have its own mind, its own agenda, it does not! Who does it serve? It serves the Monied Interests! Every damn congressperson who ignores his individual constituents while promising sweetheart deals to corporate benefactors is committing treason against our government. You blame the government. I blame the Monied Interests who know damn well that they seduce the congressman with junkets for favors. You know it too.

Monied Interests are not going to be stopped dead in their tracks by your hopelessly incorrect view of a monolithic government entity. No sir. Our beautiful Representative Democracy, this incredible gift that idiots like Reagan dissed, is under assault by self-interested morons and liars and scoundrels who prostitute the people we elected to serve our needs. It is sad how Americans shoot the messenger and let off the scoundrels.
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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:44 pm

turk wrote:I don't think it's just "big money" supporting the roll back of public sector union bargaining rights (which isn't the death knell of unions). It's exaggerated for media consumption and effect. It's not the end of unions at all. Many middle class people see the problem in this. It's happening world-wide as I have already pointed out. I've also pointed out the rationale to ad
nauseam, even historically, and with documentation and proof for you.
Worldwide corporate exploitation. Nothing new.

Death knell of unions? A very serious real possibility if you actually look at the trend. Turk, it is going in one direction only.
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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:47 pm

Ya' know you might be more persuasive if you toned down the trivial denigration of your perceived adversary. That doesn't hold much persuasion when you go off with the expletives and scorn. I'm not saying you are attacking me personally. I personally don't care much what you say about me personally. It's obviously hot-air. But if you are wanting to make a compelling case against say reagan and conservatives or republicans, if you tone it down a little and just make a sober, factual argument, it will be more powerful. I don't know what your intent is. I'm just making an observation. Take it or leave it. Up to you.

*this after I see you replied to my post - I notice sometimes you do keep it a little more civil in my case*
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"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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Re: Corporate Taxes!!!!!!

Post by turk » Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:55 pm

As quick as I can type: it's been a tough debate, and a fight in Wisconsin, and I tyhink some compromise is in order on both sides but Walker is holding fast on his decisions and principakls. This may end up strengthening union popularity in the long run. That may be the case. It may be a bad move for republicans in Wisc. in the next election. It remains to be seen. I don't think unions will take it laying down.
A man said to the universe, "Sir I exist! "However," replied the universe, "the fact has not created in me a sense of obligation."

"Let me be perfectly clear" "[...] And so that was just a example of a new senator, you know, making what is a political vote as opposed to doing what was important for the country." Barry Sotero

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