Itinerant Air-Cooled

Sunday will start the ninth year of the Iraq war and today Mr. Obama starts rattling the sword against Libya. The similarities are glaring: 1. an oppressed people 2. An okay from the UN 3. The British and Arab countries all lined up 4. An American media who at the outset aren't asking any questions at all 5. Finally mostly American troops/airmen lined up against another Muslim nation without any support from their politicians when the shit hits the fan they hit the road.

Little wonder they hate us, I say let them fight out between themselves and the last man standing can claim the ruins. I've had too many compatriots who have served in these shitholes, and for what? Ptsd, broken marriages, children growing up without them and their elected representatives, especially my Senator Patty Murray using them as props to further their agenda.

Once again, we go in scare/kill the bastards and claim victory to win or we stay home. Seems simple to me, but I live in Washington state not Washington DC.

pj wrote:Sunday will start the ninth year of the Iraq war and today Mr. Obama starts rattling the sword against Libya. The similarities are glaring: 1. an oppressed people 2. An okay from the UN 3. The British and Arab countries all lined up 4. An American media who at the outset aren't asking any questions at all 5. Finally mostly American troops/airmen lined up against another Muslim nation without any support from their politicians when the shit hits the fan they hit the road.

Little wonder they hate us, I say let them fight out between themselves and the last man standing can claim the ruins. I've had too many compatriots who have served in these shitholes, and for what? Ptsd, broken marriages, children growing up without them and their elected representatives, especially my Senator Patty Murray using them as props to further their agenda.

Once again, we go in scare/kill the bastards and claim victory to win or we stay home. Seems simple to me, but I live in Washington state not Washington DC.

I am disappointed with Obama's conduct of American militarism.

Please, however, discern the differences between Iraq and the latest upheavals in the Middle East. We were unilaterally spoiling for a fight in 2003 and *invaded* under the cover of darkness.
Here in 2011, the people of the region have initiated their own efforts at liberation, and the opposition has been begging us for some air cover.
Colin

Amskeptic wrote:

pj wrote:Sunday will start the ninth year of the Iraq war and today Mr. Obama starts rattling the sword against Libya. The similarities are glaring: 1. an oppressed people 2. An okay from the UN 3. The British and Arab countries all lined up 4. An American media who at the outset aren't asking any questions at all 5. Finally mostly American troops/airmen lined up against another Muslim nation without any support from their politicians when the shit hits the fan they hit the road.

Little wonder they hate us, I say let them fight out between themselves and the last man standing can claim the ruins. I've had too many compatriots who have served in these shitholes, and for what? Ptsd, broken marriages, children growing up without them and their elected representatives, especially my Senator Patty Murray using them as props to further their agenda.

Once again, we go in scare/kill the bastards and claim victory to win or we stay home. Seems simple to me, but I live in Washington state not Washington DC.

I am disappointed with Obama's conduct of American militarism.

Please, however, discern the differences between Iraq and the latest upheavals in the Middle East. We were unilaterally spoiling for a fight in 2003 and *invaded* under the cover of darkness.
Here in 2011, the people of the region have initiated their own efforts at liberation, and the opposition has been begging us for some air cover.
Colin

You forget that the Shiites and Kurds rose up against Saddam after the liberation of Kuwait, and we left them to their fate (genocide, poison gas, etc.).

So let's review: in countries with less-than-perfect autocratic leaders (Tunisia, Egypt, South Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan...) which are allied with or supported by the U.S., the army stops short of murdering their own people, and they can evolve in to true democracies when conditions are right. Countries ruled by genuine, anti-American despots (Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea...) have no problem slaughtering their own innocent civilians, and can only be liberated with outside military force.

No I think it has more to do with oil and whether you do what the US government wants you to do. Although I thought we were good with Khaddafi in Libya these days, I am not sure why we are aligning with the rebels...maybe we are worried about a long term disruption of service...just a guess though.

Oil has something to do with it. The Lockerbie bomber was set free by Britain and received as a hero in Libya a few years back. I would bet oil had something to do with that. Britain and France are in "the lead" on this "mission", though whether they do the heavy lifting remains to be seen. Obama is a nobel peace prize recipient, and an apologist all around, so I don't really see the resolve in his entering the fray. All things considered I don't see it ending well. Hillary already telegraphed her discontent with everything in the administration. But all of these factors could prove meaningless. Maybe it will work out for the better. Ghaddafi looks smokin' cold stylin' in those Ray-Bans and tunic, but he is beggin' for a thumpin'.

hippiewannabe wrote:

Amskeptic wrote:

pj wrote:Sunday will start the ninth year of the Iraq war and today Mr. Obama starts rattling the sword against Libya. The similarities are glaring: 1. an oppressed people 2. An okay from the UN 3. The British and Arab countries all lined up 4. An American media who at the outset aren't asking any questions at all 5. Finally mostly American troops/airmen lined up against another Muslim nation without any support from their politicians when the shit hits the fan they hit the road.

Little wonder they hate us, I say let them fight out between themselves and the last man standing can claim the ruins. I've had too many compatriots who have served in these shitholes, and for what? Ptsd, broken marriages, children growing up without them and their elected representatives, especially my Senator Patty Murray using them as props to further their agenda.

Once again, we go in scare/kill the bastards and claim victory to win or we stay home. Seems simple to me, but I live in Washington state not Washington DC.

I am disappointed with Obama's conduct of American militarism.

Please, however, discern the differences between Iraq and the latest upheavals in the Middle East. We were unilaterally spoiling for a fight in 2003 and *invaded* under the cover of darkness.
Here in 2011, the people of the region have initiated their own efforts at liberation, and the opposition has been begging us for some air cover.
Colin

You forget that the Shiites and Kurds rose up against Saddam after the liberation of Kuwait, and we left them to their fate (genocide, poison gas, etc.).

So let's review: in countries with less-than-perfect autocratic leaders (Tunisia, Egypt, South Korea, Philippines, Thailand, Taiwan...) which are allied with or supported by the U.S., the army stops short of murdering their own people, and they can evolve in to true democracies when conditions are right. Countries ruled by genuine, anti-American despots (Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea...) have no problem slaughtering their own innocent civilians, and can only be liberated with outside military force.

Saddam gassed the Shiites and Kurds in 1988 at the tail end of the Iran/Iraq war when Iran was working with them to make inroads in the North. Iraq was our ally at the time, and the US fully supported Saddam's assertion that Iran was actually responsible for the gassing for many years after.

After the liberation of Kuwait in 1990, the northern uprising was an escalation of unrest long simmering, and with the help of the northern monied nationalists, which we supported, the uprising was suppressed. No gassings though. Neither incidents began through peaceful gatherings of citizens protesting.

And generally, you're right, in the countries headed by tinpot despots the US supported, armies did stop short of slaughtering citizens. We did however look the other way for the decades our allies ruled those countries through terror, oppression, murder, killings, torture, etc. of their civilians. And these were populist uprisings begun through the peaceful gatherings of citizens protesting.

It is also true that there is unrest and have been uprisings in the dictatorial insane countries, that outside military intervention could in theory help citizens in their liberation efforts. The military in those countries is the boot on the necks of it's citizens. These are also for the most part militarized societies. Do we really want to engage in that many new wars? Military intervention could even be a unifying force, a common oppressor that strengthens the nationalistic impulses of a nation and we would end up also at war with those who we were liberating.

Sooner or later the community organizing works. Look at the success citizens have had recently. Look at the models that have inspired people to risk being slaughtered by their own country's military.



neal

I find it strange that amongst the recent rebellions (Egypt, Syria, Bahrain, and Yemen), Libya is the only one we've intervened in.
That said, I feel it's impossible to make an informed decision on the benefits/liabilities of the action. There's so little factual information in the traditional news sources at present; the signal to noise ratio is totally whacked. I can't even hope to understand what's going on outside of my own neighborhood.

Wow we sent B-2's in there from Louisiana. Gaddafi Duck should be scared now. And boy oh boy, the French and Brits seem anxious to get in there ahead of us, love them Mirage's over Benghazi and shooting up those tanks. TwinFalls, what do you think?

Doesn't congress have to authorize the use of force?

turk wrote:Doesn't congress have to authorize the use of force?

The shrub busted that notion
nine years now.

Power doesn't give back an inch
just grists
our lives into
acceptable
collateral
costs.

into the box

of numb


Myself I'm overwhelmed by the madness of it all and delve deep into a bath of conspiracies swirling through noggin and
if at the moment I'm being whipped through a cat-scan, you might well catch some synapses firing.

Can't forget Christian Warriors,
Radical right, Endemic, touched with
righteousness that knows
they are doing the work of Jesus.

Whoops, no,
working to hasten and
fulfill Biblical end-times.



etc. please indulge me my striving to be poetic rant.

Obviously I harbor some conspiracy theories that resonate for me. This impulse to launch Holy Wars. Are we mediaeval again?



neal

No need to indulge in hare-brained conspiracy theories. Isn't the shrub's resolution why you voted for the bamster?

I love how Gadhafi predicted "a very long war" with the U.S. Uh, no shit genius? How'd you guess? Possibly because every war the U.S. gets involved in lasts forever? i.e. we never leave.

Why Libya? Why not Korea, Iran?

Weakness. The US likes a perceived weak target for military endeavors. Even Iraq, the perception was weakness. March in, flex the technologies of death, wrap it up in a week. Oops.


neal

Community organizing writ large, with power. The U.N., and the lead of France and Britain in this case, whose interests are more inextricably entwined to this particular theater. But, of course, the U.S., World Cop, MUST have participation, as the leader of NATO. Abogado (advocate) for the "little guy" (the rebels) which no one really knows are "better" than the tyrant, Khadaffy; but that is the assumption in this case, and O is gambling now that he has had a taste of the job in reality, as opposed to campaigning against it. Plate glass window broken for a case of beer. Felony. Commercial burglery. I hope he sticks to his guns and gets out in days rather than weeks. Let France handle it for a change. The lawyers will sort it out. Who will be O's Public Defender?

justgimmecoffee wrote:I find it strange that amongst the recent rebellions (Egypt, Syria, Bahrain, and Yemen), Libya is the only one we've intervened in.
That said, I feel it's impossible to make an informed decision on the benefits/liabilities of the action. There's so little factual information in the traditional news sources at present; the signal to noise ratio is totally whacked. I can't even hope to understand what's going on outside of my own neighborhood.

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the fact that Libya is #9 on the list of the world's proven oil reserves. Oh, Iraq is #4.
(Egypt is #27, Syria is #33, Bahrain is #66, and Yemen is #30)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publication ... 8rank.html

Those Libyan freedom fighters are just more deserving of the world's help, I guess. ;)