John Kerry

steve74baywin · Post by **steve74baywin** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:52 am

The way I like to put is this way.
For 200+ years we've had rights put in place to prevent a king from taking control of us again.
For almost as long, and at least since WWI and WWII we have been against pre-emptive strikes.. Our DEFENSE strategy worked with both China and Russia...
What on Earth was so great this time that we had to give away our rights and do a pre-emptive attack????? Think back over the years, what on earth happened in the last 6 years that was so much greater than anything in the past 200+ years???? NOTHING
The people are being fooled again..

RussellK · Post by **RussellK** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:33 am

Bill, I can't crawl in Kerry's head and tell you with certainty what he meant and quite frankly I don't really care. Army's historically have their ranks filled with have nots and are ordered about by the haves. Many enlist hoping to get an education and there isn't anything wrong with doing that. What is wrong is they enlisted into a military that was sent on a mission without regard as to how the mission was to be accomplished. The arrogance shown in ignoring the advice of the best miltary minds, sending them over without proper equipment etc is staggering. I'm not debating the morality of the war, that is an entirely different issue but the management of this war has been a disaster and that falls squarely on Bush and his cronies shoulders.

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:38 am

vdubyah73 wrote:Randy both of your links are liberal mouthpieces. Go back and read the UN link do a search on "UN iraq resolutions" The war is legit.

Bill

Did the search, got "No Results inf search for : UN Iraq Resolutions"

And talk about mouthpieces, that Mudville thing is propaganda at is most naked. I mean, come on, the whole page is flanked with WWII era/style propaganda posters.

They call me a coward for not joining Bush's war. I call them cowards for fearing so much for their own lives, that they must kill innumerable others to feel "safe."

I would like to punch the guy who wrote that in the face, regardless of the fact that his pumped up, Army trained ass would wipe the floor with me after that. How's that for cowardice? I wouldn't though, since I can control my violent impulses, unlike so many others in this world.

Joining the Military does not earn you Honor and Respect, you have to earn that yourself. Hiding behind a uniform and demanding Honor and Respect without earning it means you deserve neither. The US Military can't ride its own WWII coattails forever...

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:51 am

^ Man, I sound angry, I shouldn't be allowed to post before 9am...

steve74baywin · Post by **steve74baywin** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:58 am

RussellK wrote: The arrogance shown in ignoring the advice of the best miltary minds, sending them over without proper equipment etc is staggering. I'm not debating the morality of the war, that is an entirely different issue but the management of this war has been a disaster and that falls squarely on Bush and his cronies shoulders.

When things like this,,and many other things in the past 6 years were done but make no sense, no one can figure it out,,,,,my autosig comes to the rescue once again.

It all makes sense when you realize their agenda is to control, dominate and get rich.

They had no desire in getting this done quickly and correctly... They desired to gain control of that region, control them and us more, and get rich....
This really does seem to explain it all.

Velokid1 · Post by **Velokid1** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:08 am

Only poor soldiers and their poor families can be forced to let our leaders get away with sending our troops off to die in bullshit wars over money and oil (oil is the society-condoned crack cocaine of the modern world).

If the military were full of soldiers from wealthy families who can afford lawyers, the Bush Cartel wouldn't have gotten away with this boondoggle for more than a month.

The military wouldn't be able to survive if it weren't able to fill its ranks with men and women who come from families of limited means.

But darn that Kerry for pointing that out!!! Even if he did do it inadvertently.

vdubyah73 · Post by **vdubyah73** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:23 pm

The mudville thing was only to give credit for the qoute never been ther before.

Bill

vdubyah73 · Post by **vdubyah73** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:44 pm

DJ I'm not coming around. I was raised by democrats I started leaning right in my 20's. That was 20 or so years ago. I'll say it again I'm not as far right as you may think. The likes of Rush would think I'm a liberal. Someone said in here or another thread something aboit the economy well the economy is cranking right along. Unemployment is way down, gov't tax revenue is way up despite tax cuts. Inflation is nearly nonexistent. the deficit was cut in half in the past year, despite the war on terror. The war on terror has produced good things too. Libya gave up on WMD's and invited the UN in. Some of the Islamic monarchies have started to have elections. There is a gov't in Iraq elected by the people of Iraq. Their gov't isn't strong enough to stand on its own, but it will be if given time. If we cut and run, peace at any cost, chaos will rule and a bloody reign of terror will begin again in Iraq. The way you guys would like things to be is a good and honorable goal. But this must be finished. We could pull out of Iraq, damn the consequences to the people of Iraq. How long will it be before some Islamic terrorists try to kill us again, on our own soil I don't think it will be long. Oh one more thing most of the deaths in Iraq are the Sunnis and Shi'ites killing each other.

Bill

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:15 pm

I don't think we should "cut and run." I think we should never had been there in the first place. We are now between Iraq and hard place, with no good answer. I don't know if the world would be better off if we left or not.

I don't mean your are "coming around," but you are starting to explain your views more. I debate because I believe, but also to learn.

LiveonJG · Post by **LiveonJG** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:32 pm

vdubyah73 wrote:Some of the Islamic monarchies have started to have elections.

Bill

I think today in Dubai the princes were allowed to vote on what would be served for dinner.
-John

Velokid1 · Post by **Velokid1** » Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:36 pm

Unemployment is down from what it was a couple years ago, but there are many folks who had good jobs in 2000 who are now working for $10/hour and who are "employed" just not well-employed.

And as for Iraq being able to stand on their own two feet if we just stick around to help out, when has it been more obvious than it is today that we will never accomplish that goal. It will not happen.

So I'm not saying cut and run, but as we try to come up with a plan that WILL work, it would help if our leaders (all THREE of them) would start being real and stop talking as if we are going to establish a stable democratic government (or ANY stable government) in Iraq.

As Bush Sr. said, "Not gon' happen."

steve74baywin · Post by **steve74baywin** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:33 am

vdubyah73 wrote:Unemployment is way down, gov't tax revenue is way up despite tax cuts. Inflation is nearly nonexistent. the deficit was cut in half in the past year, despite the war on terror.
Bill

This is why we feel you listen to Rush, Fox news and the Republican talking points..
1) Everyone with a little bit of thought already knows the unemployement numbers are BS. People are only on it for 11 months. I don't think I know a single non business owner who has gotten any kind of pay increase in the last 6+ years. Everyone I know has had gas, housing, insurance, taxes, and food go up. I do know plenty who lost good jobs, and are now bouncing around as contractors for less than they made in 2000.

2) Iraq did not have Terrorist in it untill Bush's poor plan allowed them there. I say Bush did this by design, so I guess it is a good plan, just not the goal he led us to believe.

3) Cut and run, an incorrect term taunted by the Rep talking points.
What would happen if we came clean with the world and the Iraqies? What if we say we had a criminal cabal wrongfully take control of our country, lied to the people and invaded Iraq for there own gain. We say we are sorry and will help fix things...... Like you mommas always said, honesty is the best policy.

Bill, I will give you alot of credit, your doing very well to be hanging in here still, we have you out numbered on this board,,,, you could go to another board and have it much easier......
More power to you......
=D>
Peace bro, from a former Rhode Islander

Velokid1 · Post by **Velokid1** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:47 am

steve74baywin wrote: 3) Cut and run, an incorrect term taunted by the Rep talking points.
What would happen if we came clean with the world and the Iraqies? What if we say we had a criminal cabal wrongfully take control of our country, lied to the people and invaded Iraq for there own gain. We say we are sorry and will help fix things...... Like you mommas always said, honesty is the best policy.

Well-said.

RussellK · Post by **RussellK** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:21 am

Why was there such an enormous hurry to rush into Iraq. First there were UN inspectors searching and finding nothing. Wouldn't it have made more sense to send more inspectors if the search for WMD's needed speeding up? Why the hurry to spill blood. Anyone that could read a National Geographic knew that country was held together tenuosly at best and if the power structure collapsed the country would implode. Civil war is imminent. The war has distracted our focus where it should have been and has become the recruitment poster for new terrorists and now it looks as though Afghanistan may go back to Taliban rule. This was all predicted and yet Bush and company ignored what they found uncomfortable. The cost is staggering in both impact on our economy and in lives destroyed. Our children will be paying for this for years to come. And I don't feel safer, in fact much less so. We have destroyed our credibility in most corners of the world.

Let me tell you boys and girls, we survived Nixon (There was a Dick), Reagan (Apparently not the same one that was eulogized), George Sr (who could not buy a clue) and this group in office is the most frightening I have seen.

LiveonJG · Post by **LiveonJG** » Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:22 am

RussellK wrote:
Let me tell you boys and girls, we survived Nixon (There was a Dick), Reagan (Apparently not the same one that was eulogized), George Sr (who could not buy a clue) and this group in office is the most frightening I have seen.

No shit! Could you have ever imagined you'd be looking back at those days with a sense of nostalgia?
-John

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Itinerant Air-Cooled

John Kerry