655,000

LiveonJG · Post by **LiveonJG** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 5:04 pm

655,000

Could someone tell me why we're there again? And please, don't try to say these numbers are inflated, they were derived through accepted and tested scientific methods used in cases of famine, plague and natural disasters.
-John

Velokid1 · Post by **Velokid1** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:10 pm

Surely they're inflated numbers... after all, if the people responsible for this slaughter say the numbers are inaccurate, well that's good enough for me!

Baaaaahhhhhh, bleat, bleat! Baaaaahhhh.

"Happy Sheep" Velokid.

vdubyah73 · Post by **vdubyah73** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 7:41 pm

It's the worst we've had in all the 6 years of the 21'st century! Come on are these the kind of facts you use to back your arguments that freeing Iraq from a totalitarian dictator was abad thing? Sure mistakes have been made, intelligence failed, check your history, it happens. Don't try the wmd lies. The whole world believed they were there, including the Clinton administration. That pap just totaly ruined your credibility with fence sitters.

Bill

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:15 pm

vdubyah73 wrote:It's the worst we've had in all the 6 years of the 21'st century! Come on are these the kind of facts you use to back your arguments that freeing Iraq from a totalitarian dictator was abad thing? Sure mistakes have been made, intelligence failed, check your history, it happens. Don't try the wmd lies. The whole world believed they were there, including the Clinton administration. That pap just totaly ruined your credibility with fence sitters.

Bill

Huh? I am very confused by what you just said. What's the worst of what when?

Are you saying that killing 655,000 people was worth it? A little mistake? Not the real number?

The "WMD" lies? Yes everybody who believed they had "WMDs" believed they had "WMDs"....

??????

What the hell is wrong with people who can't see that 100,000 to 655,000 dead people, either end of those numbers, is obsene.

We are the terrorists. The mindset of people like you is what is killing children in Baghdad. Killing is killing is killing. Dead is dead. Human is human. An Iraqi life is as important (or unimportant) as my American life.

LiveonJG · Post by **LiveonJG** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:26 pm

vdubyah73 wrote:It's the worst we've had in all the 6 years of the 21'st century! Come on are these the kind of facts you use to back your arguments that freeing Iraq from a totalitarian dictator was abad thing? Sure mistakes have been made, intelligence failed, check your history, it happens. Don't try the wmd lies. The whole world believed they were there, including the Clinton administration. That pap just totaly ruined your credibility with fence sitters.

Bill

Huh? Bill, I believe that you believe that everyone thought Saddam had WMD. But that's as far as I'm willing to go with it. The weapons inspectors knew he didn't. The CIA knew he didn't. Our allies knew he didn't. But here you go with the talking point that "everbody" knew. Please, Bill, we can all get that over at Fox news. It would be so refreshing to hear you actually articulate a point that I haven't heard a hundred times already.

I also think you're being a bit arrogant and cavalier regarding the deaths of over half a million innocent people.

As for YOU being a fence sitter. Come on, you have to be kidding.
-John

LiveonJG · Post by **LiveonJG** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:37 pm

Hey DJ, you posted right before I did... damn funny we started off the same way. I don't get Bill's response at all.

-John

Post by **Amskeptic** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:52 pm

vdubyah73 wrote:
are these the kind of facts you use to back your arguments that freeing Iraq from a totalitarian dictator was a bad thing?

Yes. I'd rather be killed by a despot tyrant than the Leader of The Free World.
Colin

Velokid1 · Post by **Velokid1** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:42 pm

vdubyah73 wrote:The whole world believed they were there, including the Clinton administration.

I'm not saying you're a Republican, b/c I don't know if you are or aren't, but this argument has become the mantra of Republicans and I hear it especially often the past few months and it drives me NUTS.

Republicans hate Clinton, probably moreso than any other Democrat in recent history. (He's far more fun to hate than Carter... Carter's too easy a target, after all. It just ain't sportin'!) But Republicans keep citing Clinton as justification for just about everything they've done since 2000.

They didn't call him Slick Willie for nothing. (No, they called him that to help get him out of office for a hummer.

)

And that's how two-party politics and the two-horse race work... IF person A were Republican and person B were Democrat, all person A has to do is point out that "Your person did it, too!" and instantly the politicians of the world are off the hook.

As for me, I say, "MY person?? Whaddya mean MY person? I haven't come across a politician in any of my 33 years who is MY kind of person. MY people are all up and down my block here in the real world. MY people are my neighbors and family and friends... normal, working people who care about themselves while also caring about the comfort, well-being and prosperity of the other 6.5 billion members of the human race."

We did not go into Iraq to free the people from a totalitarian dictator. That reason didn't even make it onto the Bush Administration's list of Top 5 Reasons to Invade Iraq. In fact, I bet that the Bush Admin. most likely considers helping the people of Iraq just another unfortunate side effect of seizing control of their oil fields.

George Bush and the wealthy elite of the United States don't even give a shit about the average people of America... why would we possibly believe that they care about the poor and middle-class people of a Middle Eastern nation?

Their true motives couldn't be any more transparent! Especially six years into it.

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:45 am

Velokid1 wrote: George Bush and the wealthy elite of the United States don't even give a shit about the average people of America... why would we possibly believe that they care about the poor and middle-class people of a Middle Eastern nation?

Their true motives couldn't be any more transparent! Especially six years into it.

hambone · Post by **hambone** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:17 am

Millions worldwide protested the invasion of Iraq, millions worldwide protest when Bush even SHOWS UP in their burg. What does that say? Makes me embarrased.
Give me a break man. That invasion was a mistake, and now we all have shit on our collective faces. Closed door buisness can be spooky and mysterious, but this was pretty transparent. That invasion was for ulterior motives, and no amount of logic or international pressure were to change anything.

Don't trust rhetoric, trust what your logic tells you.

Adventurewagen · Post by **Adventurewagen** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:29 am

Ask me if I care for one.

Amskeptic wrote:
vdubyah73 wrote:
are these the kind of facts you use to back your arguments that freeing Iraq from a totalitarian dictator was a bad thing?
Yes. I'd rather be killed by a despot tyrant than the Leader of The Free World.
Colin

You should try to take your itinerant trip to North Korea then and see how far you get. I'd give you 1day before your bus is confiscated, two before your in jail and 3 before your executed for some bogus reason. I'm not a fan of GWB but I draw that line when it comes to patriotism type stuff. We are a free-er country than most even with all our stupid homeland security BS. I have too many friends fighting in Iraq right now who truly believe in what they are doing and have shown that by going back for another tour of duty. I in turn believe in them and what they are doing and have to put some "hope" or maybe "faith" (dirty word) in our government as a whole. Then again I'm not at all religious but I can't think of a better word for what it is. If you think one man, our president, is to blame for EVERYTHING then I think you credit their position in our government too much. IMO

hambone · Post by **hambone** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:53 am

His adminstration is directly responsible for all those deaths over there, not to mention the widening canyon between Muslims and the western world. Diplomacy was not served, no man over there was honored nor treated like a brother. How would YOUR tribe react?
There were NO ties between Saddam and Bin-bin.
N Korea? Give me a break, they're as big as Wisconsin and starving to death. They may have a wobbly nuke. How many do we have?

Adventurewagen · Post by **Adventurewagen** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:51 am

hambone wrote:Don't trust rhetoric, trust what your logic tells you.

Exactly. People can argue Saddam and Bin-laden didn't have anything to do with certain attacks (like the trade centers) but you can't tell me those two haven't had their fingers mixed in terrorist acts around the world over the last 20yrs leading to things like that. Whether they flew the damn plane itself into one of the trade centers or not isn't the question, its a matter of how many of those terrorists they sponsored, gave shelter to or helped get them to where they got, that is the problem and how many more they'll pump out under their control and have pumped out over the last 20yrs. I don't believe these guys are clean and free in any respect and scrutinizing over whether they are responsible was not a far stretch at all. If they didn't want the shit they got brought down on themselves they should have rolled over and opened their borders to a full pat down. People seem to forget the resistance they gave the UN.

I don't disagree we bullied our way in there, or that money (oil) wasn't a factor or that Bush didn't bring a personal vendetta into the issue. I won't even disagree that what happened to the innocent people over there isn't crappy but I won't agree that it was a complete mistake or that it wasn't avoidable on both our part and theirs.

Please don't take my comments as personal attacks on any of you guys. If you've ever noticed I generally stay out of the political commentary as I don't like argueing over it much, I just had to throw out some of my feelings on it today.

hambone · Post by **hambone** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:00 am

I don't take it personally. I'm not political either. I've just had enough sabre-rattling to last several lifetimes.

Velokid1 · Post by **Velokid1** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:04 am

Adventurewagen wrote:Ask me if I care for one.

Amskeptic wrote:
Yes. I'd rather be killed by a despot tyrant than the Leader of The Free World.
Colin
You should try to take your itinerant trip to North Korea then and see how far you get.

I can't speak for Colin, but I took his remark to mean that it makes more sense to think of a despot tyrant being a murderer than it does to think that the supposed Leader of the Free World and #1 Proponent of Democracy and Liberty is indiscriminately killing hundreds of thousands and taking a dump on the Constitution of the United States.

IOW, my overall faith in humanity would be far more shaken by watching Mother Theresa kill someone on the streets than it would be if I were to see, say, OJ Simpson stabbing someone in an alley.

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Itinerant Air-Cooled

655,000

655,000