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Post by **Amskeptic** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:04 pm

Velokid1 wrote:
I can't speak for Colin, but I took his remark to mean that it makes more sense to think of a despot tyrant being a murderer than it does to think that the supposed Leader of the Free World and #1 Proponent of Democracy and Liberty is indiscriminately killing hundreds of thousands and taking a dump on the Constitution of the United States.

IOW, my overall faith in humanity would be far more shaken by watching Mother Theresa kill someone on the streets than it would be if I were to see, say, OJ Simpson stabbing someone in an alley.

That is my point Adventurewagen. I am appalled and angry as hell that we have behaved despicably with our foreign policy. There is no escape from the fact that we have committed terrorism ourselves, don't even try to tell me we haven't. We just perform it by proxy. We PUT Saddam in power. We INSTALLED the Shah of Iran. We SOLD chemical weapons to both sides of conflicts. Don't tell me we didn't. We financed the Contras to topple the democratically-elected Ortega. Then we lined up behind the overthrow of Chavez. What idiots. What the hell? We can't get all moral here.

Don't tell me how long I would last in North Korea, and certainly do not estimate how long I would last. You have no idea how I am made and how I would attempt to connect to PEOPLE, particularly if my life depended on it. Which it does.

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:29 am

Adventurewagen wrote: Exactly. People can argue Saddam and Bin-laden didn't have anything to do with certain attacks (like the trade centers) but you can't tell me those two haven't had their fingers mixed in terrorist acts around the world over the last 20yrs leading to things like that.

I can't but overwhelming evidence that they hated each other can....
Plus 20 or so years ago it was Rummy partying with "Sad-damn"

Whether they flew the damn plane itself into one of the trade centers or not isn't the question, its a matter of how many of those terrorists they sponsored, gave shelter to or helped get them to where they got, that is the problem and how many more they'll pump out under their control and have pumped out over the last 20yrs. I don't believe these guys are clean and free in any respect and scrutinizing over whether they are responsible was not a far stretch at all.

so a half million people should die because you are afraid to?

If they didn't want the shit they got brought down on themselves they should have rolled over and opened their borders to a full pat down. People seem to forget the resistance they gave the UN.

Amerika has killed far more people than either of those people combined and it hasn't "opened their borders for a full pat down."
Amerika, under Bush, has shown plenty of contempt for the UN.

I don't disagree we bullied our way in there, or that money (oil) wasn't a factor or that Bush didn't bring a personal vendetta into the issue. I won't even disagree that what happened to the innocent people over there isn't crappy but I won't agree that it was a complete mistake or that it wasn't avoidable on both our part and theirs.

Amerika has lost almost all of it's goodwill, prestige and it's perceived unbeatable might in the world, the "terrorists" are multiplying, half a million innocents are dead, Iraq is a death trap... but it wasn't a complete mistake!

Please don't take my comments as personal attacks on any of you guys. If you've ever noticed I generally stay out of the political commentary as I don't like argueing over it much, I just had to throw out some of my feelings on it today.

I, as I believe most people here do, know the difference between a political viewpoint and a person. People believe what they believe and debating would be no fun if there were no other viewpoints. You have always seemed like a nice enough guy. Hopefully you can take my comments as an appeal, not an attack.

glasseye · Post by **glasseye** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:44 am

BILL

vdubyah73 wrote:Come on are these the kind of facts you use to back your arguments that freeing Iraq from a totalitarian dictator was abad thing?

ME: That's funny. What about the other dozen or so totalitarian dictators in the world? All of them are demonstrably at least as bad as Saddam. How come THEY aren't targets of the Leader of the Free World? It's NOTHING about freedom and EVERYTHING about control of oil. Period.

BILL: Sure mistakes have been made, intelligence failed, check your history, it happens.

ME: Yah, butt these were INTENTIONAL mistakes. They LIED. And not about blowjobs, but about events that meant the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians.

BILL Don't try the wmd lies. The whole world believed they were there,

ME: No, we didn't. YOU might have. We didn't. Ever. Niether did the administration's employees, the weapons inspectors. So they fired 'em and got new ones.

Bill

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:00 am

Bill? Are you there? Are you hiding behind the cloak of "I can't win this argument so I won't play?" All the more reason to! We are not playing! This isn't right vs left. This is about the lives of millions. We truly feel that millions are suffering due to the policies you support. We really do want to change your mind and others like it. If you really, truly believed this stuff you should try harder to get us to understand your point of view. If you aren't so sure about it, I can't fathom how you can justify hundreds of thousands of deaths over something you are unsure of. There can be no "fence sitters" when millions of innocent lives are at stake. ("theirs" or "ours," since it seems to be fear of american death that drives the pro-iraq war crowd)

Velokid1 · Post by **Velokid1** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:26 am

DjEep- take it easy bro, maybe he's taking some time to think. Or maybe he doesn't feel like debating it. His choice, right? We're all having fun talking about it. No need to make it all about Bill.

hambone · Post by **hambone** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:27 am

Bill is very respectful which I appreciate. Onward!

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:43 am

Velokid1 wrote:DjEep- take it easy bro, maybe he's taking some time to think. Or maybe he doesn't feel like debating it. His choice, right? We're all having fun talking about it. No need to make it all about Bill.

I only single out Bill because he is the only one here who is seems to be on a completely different page than the rest of us regarding matters of state. I just noticed he has a habit of posting these talkradio-like points and then disappearing from the debate without backing them up.

I am serious when I say I want to know what drives viewpoints like his. He is right about one thing, the Lefty coastal states... I don't get the chance to hear the rationale behind his point of view since I am immersed in the lefty CA culture and people with views like his are few and far between.

I can appreciate respectfulness, but we are talking about matters of life and death for thousands. I admit I can get a little harsh in tone, but that is what I get for posting in this forum mainly after just waking up or after a hard day's work, when I am bitter about things in general.

RussellK · Post by **RussellK** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:43 am

I've just had enough sabre-rattling to last several lifetimes

Amen to that. This world has gone mad.

hambone · Post by **hambone** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:51 am

I think it's always been mad. It HAS to be, or our time here is wasted. It's what we do AFTER we learn is what matters....

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