Was the 2004 election stolen?

DurocShark · Post by **DurocShark** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:20 am

I didn't follow the results very closely. But this article is definitely food for thought:

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/ ... ion_stolen

DjEep · Post by **DjEep** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:46 am

When was one not?

Read stuff by Greg Palast if you want some more food...

hambone · Post by **hambone** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:12 pm

It was, both times.
The question is, "now what???"
the damage is done....

steve74baywin · Post by **steve74baywin** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 1:36 pm

hambone wrote:It was, both times.
The question is, "now what???"
the damage is done....

Maybe this will tell us what to do next, at least the headline--"Stop the rigging of the 2006 and 2008 elections" sounds promising. http://www.hermes-press.com/vote_rig.htm

Post by **Amskeptic** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:36 pm

It is a dire situation. I read (bitterly) how Gannett News Service (USA Today) is already softening people's expectations by running articles that mention "difficulties training poll workers to operate the new electronic polling machines" with quotes from Diebold executives and others about the gargantuan task of switching the country over. The corporate oligarchy has taken a lot of money for this switchover, we ought to have better reliability, period. Somehow, there is a "funding problem" that lands on the polling places. It is truly sickening.
Yesterday's New York Times Op-Ed page had an article about how "Republicans just might hang on this fall" now where the hell did that assessment come from? No substantiation whatsoever.
Colin

DurocShark · Post by **DurocShark** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:No substantiation whatsoever.

This is how:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WMG34cv0zM

And

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JESZiLpBLE

Post by **Amskeptic** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:14 pm

This Democracy Is In Trouble.
We must have verifiable paper trails, but who is going to count them?
The lever-style machines were never an issue until they were made an issue.
Colin

DurocShark · Post by **DurocShark** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:21 pm

New slogan:

"Diebold: Keeping Republicans in office since 2000"

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:28 am

I live in the town where Diebold is headquartered. My wife used to work there. They are basically an old-line heavy manufacturing company that made bank vaults and bank-office equipment that had to go "high-tech" or perish. So, they got into ATMs in the '80s and were successful at that. The voting machines were a natural next step. About the same time, they hired a "high flying" president that got them into all kinds of hot water by making stupid political statements and running the company based on the daily stock price instead of the long-term. He never even bothered to move to the area from his home 2-1/2 hours away.

The day they finally fired him, a cheer went up in the offices from what we heard. The new management seems to want to get the company back to its roots as an ethical, responsible corporate citizen. They've already brought the IT department back in-house (they had outsourced it). They need the voting machine business to survive, as ATMs are now a flat market. The company contributes a lot to the community here, and I think they deserve the chance to succeed.

How will we feel if our democratic process depends on electronic voting machines made in communist China?

Post by **Sluggo** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:35 am

vwlover77 wrote:How will we feel if our democratic process depends on electronic voting machines made in communist China?

Look inside the machine. Probably made in China and assembled in AmeriKKKa. Personally, I prefer walking into someone's garage, marking a piece of paper and handing it to some old lady.

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:55 am

Sluggo wrote: Look inside the machine. Probably made in China and assembled in AmeriKKKa. Personally, I prefer walking into someone's garage, marking a piece of paper and handing it to some old lady.

I agree, but those days are gone, mostly. Here, we've still got the garages and old ladies, but now there are extension cords running all over to run the voting machines.

I'm just trying to be realistic. The guts may be made in China, but people in this community still design, test, market, and service the machines. I'd hate to see a lot of my neighbors and friends out of a job, and a 100+ year-old company down the tubes.

Post by **Amskeptic** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:02 pm

vwlover77 wrote:I agree, but those days are gone, mostly.

Who decides that those days are gone and why?

We have had elections for decades just puttering right along UNTIL 2000? What changed? Suddenly "too many people"? Bullshit.
I hate these straw men that keep popping up.
This is not about keeping a nice bunch of Diebold employees employed. Diebold could have made bulletproof verifiable voting machines, but the leadership was answering to other pressures under the radar screen.
Traitorous pressures, I might add.
Colin

LiveonJG · Post by **LiveonJG** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 4:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
vwlover77 wrote:I agree, but those days are gone, mostly.
Who decides that those days are gone and why?

Technology decides. We're addicted to it. We act as if it's our savior. "It's new and high tech, so it has to be better!" While they'll always be those who resist the tide of technology (I think some of them drive old VWs

), it will still march on. This is reality, it's impossible to stop. So you can either be wistful about yesterday or focus on making it work for today and tomorrow.
-John

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:23 pm

I didn't think the issue was too many people, it was an election result so close that the margin of error inherent in counting paper ballots was greater than the precision needed to determine the winner (in 2000 anyway). In addition, the recount processes damaged the ballots, and more error was introduced.

In theory, computers have no such margins of error. And since politicians are always forward-thinking, optimistic, latest-thing kind of folks, of COURSE electronic voting machines were the answer!

Was Diebold leadership answering to other pressures, or were they just stupid and arrogant enough to think that since they process millions of dollars of banking transactions through their ATMs and ATM controllers every day without error that counting votes was a cake walk? Who knows. But the leadership that said they would deliver Bush the vote is now gone, thank goodness.

Post by **Amskeptic** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:17 am

vwlover77 wrote:I didn't think the issue was too many people, it was an election result so close that the margin of error inherent in counting paper ballots was greater than the precision needed to determine the winner (in 2000 anyway).

Nope. Sorry. The Results were not that close.
The "results" were.
Thousands upon thousands of discounted ballots made it "close."
We have got to stop being such willing and or dumb sheep.
Florida was a complete trainwreck of illegality from the get-go.
Kathleen Harris and Jeb Bush promised George that Florida was his and made it so.
Colin

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Was the 2004 election stolen?

Was the 2004 election stolen?