Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Over 18 ONLY! For grown-ups. . .

Moderators: Amskeptic, Sluggo

Post Reply
Abscate
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Abscate » Fri Nov 16, 2018 6:11 am

I’ve been thinking about this for 6 months, saw the light last week,and the NYT published on it recently.

Credit to George Will for writing on this 2 decades ago ( fact check?)

The size of the House of Representatives was last adjusted in 1911, for a population of 100M

The population of the US is now 300M +

Wyoming has 2x more electoral power than CA NY or TX

The simple adjustment that needs to be made is the average House seat should represent the same number of people as the smallest district.

That makes gerrymandering much more difficult and restores electoral college voting to represent popular votes, absent State meddling.

TrollFromDownBelow
IAC Addict!
Location: Metro Detroit
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:55 pm

I like the idea, but think to impact the issues gerrymandering causes we will need more than that ....they get very creative with the borders of the districts. For example, Detroit and Pontiac are in the same district even though they don't have adjoining borders, and they are 20 miles apart....they make them connect by including one road (woodward). They are both predominantly democratic - this mutes the impact by placing in one district. That said - think your idea

I like what Michigan passed this last election... an independent committee decides the boundaries.
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...8 completely solid lifters.... now it's both kinda noisy and leaky, but she sure runs good!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
::troll2::

Abscate
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Abscate » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:04 am

You can actually mathematically define gerrymandering by studying the border to area ratio, but an independent commission to determine districts is a good start

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Nov 17, 2018 9:14 am

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Fri Nov 16, 2018 2:55 pm
I like the idea, but think to impact the issues gerrymandering causes we will need more than that ....they get very creative with the borders of the districts. For example, Detroit and Pontiac are in the same district even though they don't have adjoining borders, and they are 20 miles apart....they make them connect by including one road (woodward). They are both predominantly democratic - this mutes the impact by placing in one district. That said - think your idea

I like what Michigan passed this last election... an independent committee decides the boundaries.

Gerrymandering can be tamed with independent district drawing commissions, and more states are turning to this solution.

The Electoral College was a good-faith attempt by our Founding Fathers to level the power dynamics between dense urban and sparse rural representation. It still has validity. But we need to adjust the mechanics of how it works. The House of Representatives is an unwieldy mess of bureaucratic fiefdoms and redundant office support systems. If the population of the country has tripled since 1911, I sure would hate to see 1,320 representatives in Congress. I really would hate to see that.

A lovely "correction factor" would be to assign representation based on tax receipts from each district. Then our Wyoming "farmers", aka tax havens, wouldn't have such sway over their congressional representatives, and our urban citizens would gain power through numbers.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

Abscate
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Abscate » Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:47 pm

Better yet, net tax receipts from the States.

Then the 9 blue states and 2 red states that pay for the other 39 won’t have to listen to the squealing anymore.

( this would be a bad idea, I think )

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by asiab3 » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:29 pm

Abscate wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 2:47 pm
( this would be a bad idea, I think )
But a fun one! I've met a few Trump voters who voted for him for that reason.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

Abscate
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Abscate » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:15 am

Its a horrible idea because the entire country would be elected by 11 states, 9 of which are blue.

The uneducated conservatives would be horrified to learn that they live on liberal dollars,but thankfully we can spare them that horror by just writing it in newspapers.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:17 am

Abscate wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:15 am
Its a horrible idea because the entire country would be elected by 11 states, 9 of which are blue.

The uneducated conservatives would be horrified to learn that they live on liberal dollars,but thankfully we can spare them that horror by just writing it in newspapers.

Countries are not elected by states. Do you see how tortured your sentence is?

Reality. Presidents and leaders are elected by PEOPLE. In every state, there are people who "win" and people who "lose" on election night. What the hell does it matter what state they are in?
What does matter, is when the Will of the People gets thwarted by craftily manipulated machinations.
Why did Republicans win the Congressional majority when they LOST the popular vote by up to 7% on average since the turn of the century? Gerrymandering!
Why did the past two republican presidents LOSE the popular vote, (Trump by the greatest margin in history)?
Why is the Arctic Wildlife Refuge just about to fall to mining interests when SEVENTY PERCENT OF ALL AMERICANS ARE OPPOSED?

And you think this has anything to do with imbalanced state representation?
No. We have corporate oligarchs abusing rural states for greater influence. We have a hideous corporate entity in Alaska who has bought off Lisa Murkowski, who pretends that it is Native American so it gets tax breaks, and it is just about to profit from leases on OUR last unspoiled wildlife refuge.

It is time that all of us Americans get to have a say.
The MAJORITY believes in gun control.
The MAJORITY believes in the sanctity of our national monuments.
The MAJORITY believes in abortion rights

Isn't it time we friggen let the majority BE the majority instead of being held hostage to these greedy little judgmental hypocritical grifters like Zinke and Pruitt and Trump, those who have no-to-negative "mandates"?
Screw the blue state/red state crap.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

Abscate
I'm New!
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Abscate » Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:42 am

I was (over) reacting to the proposal to base vote weights on tax revenues. Only 11 states fund this entire experiment at the Federal level was my point.

The fact is an electoral college elector in WY has the weight of 300k people and one in CA casts the same vote for 700k people. Thats not democratic by a large factor.

I dont understand people saying 'I don't want a House to be a 1000 people" the dyamics of 500 and 1000 in terms of managing a group are the same, arguably anything over the tipping point of 100 doesn't matter.

I would also argue we are MORE diverse society than in 1911 - and that if anything a representative should represent fewer people than they did in 1911, not 3x more

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: Fixing gerrymandering, electoral college, rural vs urban divide

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:11 am

Abscate wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 10:42 am
I dont understand people saying 'I don't want a House to be a 1000 people" the dyamics of 500 and 1000 in terms of managing a group are the same, arguably anything over the tipping point of 100 doesn't matter.

I would also argue we are MORE diverse society than in 1911 - and that if anything a representative should represent fewer people than they did in 1911, not 3x more

Good points. Solid points.
But I have a personal affliction, a tic, a vomit reflex at the thought of our Congress being any bigger than it is.
It's weird, but even though having more representatives would allow for better constituent coverage, that is not where we need our voices to count. We need our voices to count in the plenum. I would rather have three times as many constituents behind one competent legislator on the floor of the House.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

Post Reply