"What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

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"What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:15 am

"What if Mueller proves his case and it doesn't matter?"

Here's a good read offered to my inbox this morning by a forum member. This article cuts through my dread enough to clarify the roots of my unease with the current state of American "civilization". I look forward to responses:

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics ... mic-crisis
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:04 pm

Well, mass protests will be the norm and Senators like Rand Paul will get their ribs broken.
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:15 pm

I think this says it right here ..... "The only way to settle any argument is for both sides to be committed, at least to some degree, to shared standards of evidence and accuracy, and to place a measure of shared trust in institutions meant to vouchsafe evidence and accuracy. Without that basic agreement, without common arbiters, there can be no end to dispute."

If there is no concept of truth, no concept of the scientific method, no concept of evidence and accuracy. Then it boils down to, "I'm in power, you are not, so what I say is truth." I can say this...there ARE folks who were/are die hard Republicans who are absolutely appalled with trump as president. That gives me hope.
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by whc03grady » Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:31 am

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:15 pm
If there is no concept of truth, no concept of the scientific method, no concept of evidence and accuracy, then it boils down to, "I'm in power, you are not, so what I say is truth."
Exactly. Robust belief in objective truth is so fundamental to, like, everything to do with being a conscious entity, I guess, that it's astonishing how easily and readily so many disregard its existence, either outright or implicitly (e.g. "well, that's not my truth"; "it's true for them"). Bad news: it's not just the Right that has a truth problem.
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:39 am

The 2018 elections are just a year away to turn this around too.
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by tommu » Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:15 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:31 am
TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:15 pm
If there is no concept of truth, no concept of the scientific method, no concept of evidence and accuracy, then it boils down to, "I'm in power, you are not, so what I say is truth."
Exactly. Robust belief in objective truth is so fundamental to, like, everything to do with being a conscious entity, I guess, that it's astonishing how easily and readily so many disregard its existence, either outright or implicitly (e.g. "well, that's not my truth"; "it's true for them"). Bad news: it's not just the Right that has a truth problem.
It is the RIght that overwhelmingly has a problem with facts at this point in time. Global warming is a perfect example. I've also heard a lot of equivalence recently that I can only see as a sop to prejudiced thinking. IE 'there are just as many left wing bots on Twitter' or 'some very fine people on both sides'. We are seeing a vicious dead cat bounce from the old elite in this country. It can not last.

References:

https://botcheck.me/ from https://www.wired.com/story/the-college ... channel_p1
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... es/537012/

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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:46 pm

tommu wrote:
Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:15 pm
It is the RIght that overwhelmingly has a problem with facts at this point in time. Global warming is a perfect example. I've also heard a lot of equivalence recently that I can only see as a sop to prejudiced thinking, i.e.
"there are just as many left wing bots on Twitter" or
"some very fine people on both sides".

We are seeing a vicious dead cat bounce from the old elite in this country. It can not last.

I agree, and I will call it false equivalence where I can. Here's an example.

Republicans hounded Bill Clinton for a lie (they say) about a private interaction with an adult. They actually passed articles of impeachment against Clinton.

Now they have elected to the Presidency a serial liar who brags about groping, they refuse to call out Roy Moore for violating the boundaries of a fourteen year-old girl and three other teenagers, and they are trying to tar democrats??
"What about Harvey Weinstein, what about Anthony Weiner?"

Well, what about Harvey Weinstein and Anthony Weiner and Elliot Spitzer and heck Louis CK and Kevin Spacey ands whateverwhoever, WE GOT RID OF THEM POST-HASTE! Anthony Weiner shall answer to a criminal complaint. Hello!

Republicans cannot claim equivalence any more, no way. They thundered with great moral outrage against questionable private behavior of Bill Clinton "oh what will the children think?" they piteously asked in 1994. Well. Where are they now?

Any adult human being in possession of a moral compass and at least average intelligence knows damn well what is happening right now. There are, there ARE people in power who have sold their souls, and no amount of braying and spittle and whataboutism and LOOK! SQUIRREL! deflections can change that obvious conclusion. They have sold their souls. The American citizen has to wake up and realize that this is for real.
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Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:35 pm

Think we've got a bit off topic here....the argument is not left vs. right, but what is truth? what is fact? I distinctly remember Obama saying (and I maybe paraphrasing here a bit) "Politics is played between the 40 yard lines" .... that can only occur if both sides have some semblance of truth.
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FI ...8 completely solid lifters.... now it's both kinda noisy and leaky, but she sure runs good!
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:32 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:35 pm
Think we've got a bit off topic here....the argument is not left vs. right, but what is truth? what is fact? I distinctly remember Obama saying (and I maybe paraphrasing here a bit) "Politics is played between the 40 yard lines" .... that can only occur if both sides have some semblance of truth.
No, I don't think we have veered off. The Mueller Investigation is directed at a republican administration that has enjoyed a shocking degree of dismissive disregard from the republican controlled congress. It is a rightwing attack against our very precepts of truth. If the republican congress refuses to address the conclusions of the Mueller Report, then what? That is the very basis of this topic.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:33 am

2018 elections......
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by hippiewannabe » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:10 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:46 pm
Republicans hounded Bill Clinton for a lie (they say) about a private interaction with an adult. They actually passed articles of impeachment against Clinton.
HLN ran a documentary last night about the Lewinsky scandal. It was very well done, with interviews of the insiders and period news footage. You should find it and watch, it puts things in perspective with today's issues, both the Mueller investigation and the sexual harassment cleansing.

A couple of key points:
- just like Watergate, it was not the initial mistake, it was the cover-up.
- it was not about a blow job (or rather, a year and a half long extra-marital affair that involved a lot of blow jobs, including while on the phone conducting the nation's business). It was about lying under oath, conspiracy to obstruct justice, and suborning perjury.
- he could have plead the fifth amendment against self incrimination, said it was a private matter, and just accepted the embarrassment. Instead, he lied under oath, got Monica to lie on a sworn affidavit, and then attacked her character. He doubled down by looking the American people in the eye, wagging his finger at us, and lying with conviction and anger. If it hadn't been for the semen-stained dress, he would have gotten away with it.

One of the connections to today is that the whole thing came out of the Paula Jones sexual harassment allegations. If they had been leveled today, she would have been believed, and there would have been some sort of consequences. Instead he got away with viciously attacking her, painting her as a lying tramp. It was that scandal that led Starr to look at possible corroboration from other women, which led to Monica.

We have been learning a lot about sexual harassment by the powerful, both in business and politics. The difference in power between a subordinate and someone in a position to impact their career has a major bearing on what constitutes harassment. A 22 year old kid may be of legal age, but when you put her in the gaze of the charismatic President of the United States thirty years her senior, I question if the concept of consent is really any greater than a 15 year old with a 30 year old creep.

Clinton committed real crimes. The impeachment by the house is just like an indictment. There was certainly enough evidence to send it to trial. The trial occurred in the Senate, which required 66 votes to convict. They didn't get it, so he was acquitted. I call that political; he clearly committed the crimes beyond any doubt. Just like O.J., being found not guilty is not the same as exoneration.

At least with Watergate and Lewinsky, there was clear inappropriate behavior at the core. My guess is there is nothing to the Russian collusion allegation, but they are using it to lay perjury and obstruction traps for Trump to fall in to. If they got Slick Willie, a brilliant politician and masterful lair, they can get Trump, a political idiot and egomaniac who can't keep his mouth shut.
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:53 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 7:10 pm

1) A 22 year old kid may be of legal age, but when you put her in the gaze of the charismatic President of the United States thirty years her senior...

2) Clinton committed real crimes. ...

3) My guess is there is nothing to the Russian collusion allegation, .
Hi Hippie, hope all is well! We need to have a few beers together more than just once a year!

Point #1, I've heard this argument a few times over the past few weeks (e.g. a young WOMAN gets stars in her eyes by men in power) and that really bothers me. It's saying she doesn't have the mental capacity to think and make decisions. Now, if there was quid pro quo involved, or any kind of unwanted advances, etc, bets are off the table.... as it would of any man or women of any age. But to make the argument that a young women or man is not capable of making a consensual decision, then heck, they shouldn't be allowed to enlist into the military at 18 either...then that begets the question of when is someone old enough to have sex or join the military? Even going beyond the age thing, if someone in power has an affair (either man or woman) should it always be their fault? What if the subordinate made the sexual advances? What is the subordinate is trying to 'sleep their way to the top?'

Point #2. Yup totally agree. He tried to subvert the judicial system and process, and that is serious. He should have sucked up the shame and called it a day.

Point #3. That's your guess... but if evidence proves otherwise (just like it did with Clinton) then mucking with our Democratic process is pretty serious. Some may look at the original Clinton transgression and say ... "getting a BJ is not in the same league as messing with the democratic process" but as you pointed out, it wasn't the original transgression, it was the cover-up. I'm not lawyerly enough to take up the argument of which is worst, subverting the judicial system or attempting to sway our voting progress using the assistance of any other governmental body (whether it be ally, enemy, or Switzerland). Both are pretty bad.
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:21 am

Good points being broached here. And, yes, I will adjust my impressions of Clinton to include "far creepier". I was pretty much too outraged that the republicans were hounding him not from a moral position, but strictly a political one. Even as Gingrich and Henry Hyde and Bob Livingston were conducting concurrent affairs, and Bob Barr was licking whipped cream off of some woman at a party in 1995, and now we know George Bush Sr was not beyond dalliances either.

Clinton was the first President, apparently, where we no longer let private behavior be private behavior. OK. He should have been smart enough to realize that times were changing. He absolutely should not have tried to obstruct, maddening as the hypocrisy was.

Roy Moore is in a different place. A fourteen year-old girl, a sixteen year-old girl, is still living at home under the umbrella of her parents. To be a thirty year-old man invading that boundary suggests a deeply arrested development. OK, even giving that thirty year-old the benefit of growing up over the next forty years, this one is attacking the veracity of those girls-now-women, and he has shown a lifetime of rigid thinking and peculiar self-absorption. So while he is no longer under legal exposure, his character is totally obviously unfit. Yet, the Alabama electorate and Donald Trump and others have decided that their political aims are more important.

That is where this unfortunate mess has grave implications for all of us. There is no room for ClintonWhatAboutism in this situation. If you give Roy Moore a pass this time, you have to retroactively give all the randy goats a pass. We cannot allow the petty partisan pissing matches take sides here. Either we defend all that is good or we recognize that all is lost.
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Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
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Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by hippiewannabe » Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:16 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:21 am
Roy Moore is in a different place. A fourteen year-old girl, a sixteen year-old girl, is still living at home under the umbrella of her parents. To be a thirty year-old man invading that boundary suggests a deeply arrested development. OK, even giving that thirty year-old the benefit of growing up over the next forty years, this one is attacking the veracity of those girls-now-women, and he has shown a lifetime of rigid thinking and peculiar self-absorption. So while he is no longer under legal exposure, his character is totally obviously unfit. Yet, the Alabama electorate and Donald Trump and others have decided that their political aims are more important.

That is where this unfortunate mess has grave implications for all of us. There is no room for ClintonWhatAboutism in this situation. If you give Roy Moore a pass this time, you have to retroactively give all the randy goats a pass. We cannot allow the petty partisan pissing matches take sides here. Either we defend all that is good or we recognize that all is lost.
Colin
Just like the others, Moore had a choice to come clean and ask for forgiveness, or deny, deny, deny. Would you really forgive him for forty year old transgressions and move on? Is there a statute of limitations on bad behavior, or is it a life sentence?

What smells about this whole thing is that after forty years, the allegations came out just after the deadline had passed to field a different candidate in the election. The Washington Post is an unapologetic mouthpiece of the Democrat party, and they sat on the story until it was too late for the Republicans to get rid of him and field a different candidate. They knew virtually any Republican would win, so it had to be something extraordinary like this for their party to have a chance. Pure bare-knuckled politics, wrapped in self-righteous moralizing.
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Re: "What if . . . it doesn't matter?"

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:12 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Tue Dec 05, 2017 8:16 pm
A) Would you really forgive him for forty year old transgressions and move on? Is there a statute of limitations on bad behavior, or is it a life sentence?

B) What smells about this whole thing is that after forty years, the allegations came out just after the deadline had passed to field a different candidate in the election. The Washington Post is an unapologetic mouthpiece of the Democrat party, and they sat on the story until it was too late for the Republicans to get rid of him and field a different candidate. They knew virtually any Republican would win, so it had to be something extraordinary like this for their party to have a chance. Pure bare-knuckled politics, wrapped in self-righteous moralizing.

a) Yes, I would. I await the some time into the future opportunity to "forgive" Louis CK and others who at least showed an immediate remorse. Those who deny and attack their victims, however, strike me as too locked-up into their egoes, and I don't think I would believe any "apology" as being anything other than political calculus.

b) The allegations actually came out timed to a far more important reckoning going on in this country. From Bill Cosby to Harvey Weinstein to Anthony Weiner to Roger Ailes to Bill O'Reilley to Charlie Rose to Mark Halperin to Kevin Spacey, women are finding that this is the moment to share their stories, they might be believed this time. Yet, Roy Moore's defenders try to ignore all that and claim that it is a uniquely timed "conspiracy" against poor Roy Moore alone. Pathetic.

I think you can be a little more charitable towards the Washington Post than to claim that it is a "mouthpiece" for the Democratic Party. Really, Don. Compared to world news organizations, they are firmly in the middle as far as what they cover and what they editorialize about.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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