Bernie Sanders

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hippiewannabe
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by hippiewannabe » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:41 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Amskeptic wrote:In each case, it was not socialism that caused those financial problems, but greed, avarice, fraud, and corruption, and outside forces like capitalists trying to break them. We do not have an example yet of a socialist economy collapsing due to structural issues.
The empirical evidence supports the theory perfectly; every significant socialist economy has collapsed. China is a good example: it was completely sealed off from any potential outside forces like mean old capitalists, and imploded, at a cost of tens of millions of deaths, and hundreds of millions doomed to misery and penury. It just doesn't work. You can't allocate resources by bureaucratic fiat, only the market can do it efficiently.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by hippiewannabe » Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:46 pm

Amskeptic wrote:[..Funny you say that. Once again, it took a Democratic President to wrestle down the deficit. Interesting that the Republicans do not celebrate Obama's remarkable results with halving the federal deficit. Interesting too, that the republicans do not mention that this administration has far fewer scandals than any of the previous administrations, and that corporate wealth is at an all time high.
Debatable, all depends on where you draw the lines of who owns what deficit.

Image

But I didn't assign blame of who spent the money, I just pointed out that there isn't any there for Bernie to spend.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by 72Hardtop » Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:43 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:In each case, it was not socialism that caused those financial problems, but greed, avarice, fraud, and corruption, and outside forces like capitalists trying to break them. We do not have an example yet of a socialist economy collapsing due to structural issues.
The empirical evidence supports the theory perfectly; every significant socialist economy has collapsed. China is a good example: it was completely sealed off from any potential outside forces like mean old capitalists, and imploded, at a cost of tens of millions of deaths, and hundreds of millions doomed to misery and penury. It just doesn't work. You can't allocate resources by bureaucratic fiat, only the market can do it efficiently.

Only one problem...China's economy has indeed surpassed ours on more than one occasion. We've been neck & neck with China for several years now. Why? We send a lot of jobs there (or should I say allow) and people here in the US consume...consume of fairly sizable amount of goods that come from China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... _%28PPP%29

The reality is we should not be allowing that to happen as long as China supports communism and it's current human rights violations to exist. Until both of those are resolved no business of any kind should be allowed to go to China. Zero.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by hippiewannabe » Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:18 pm

72Hardtop wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:In each case, it was not socialism that caused those financial problems, but greed, avarice, fraud, and corruption, and outside forces like capitalists trying to break them. We do not have an example yet of a socialist economy collapsing due to structural issues.
The empirical evidence supports the theory perfectly; every significant socialist economy has collapsed. China is a good example: it was completely sealed off from any potential outside forces like mean old capitalists, and imploded, at a cost of tens of millions of deaths, and hundreds of millions doomed to misery and penury. It just doesn't work. You can't allocate resources by bureaucratic fiat, only the market can do it efficiently.

Only one problem...China's economy has indeed surpassed ours on more than one occasion. We've been neck & neck with China for several years now. Why? We send a lot of jobs there (or should I say allow) and people here in the US consume...consume of fairly sizable amount of goods that come from China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... _%28PPP%29

The reality is we should not be allowing that to happen as long as China supports communism and it's current human rights violations to exist. Until both of those are resolved no business of any kind should be allowed to go to China. Zero.
I absolutely agree with you there.

The point I was making is socialism failed. Their economy has grown fantastically since they embraced capitalism. The rulers still call themselves communist (socialist dictatorship), but they are now actually a capitalist dictatorship, i.e. fascist.

There was a strong correlation between capitalistic economic success and democracy, and we thought that implied causation. We thought if we helped China become rich, they would turn into a liberal western-style democracy. We were naive. Hitler and others proved you can have economic growth without freedom. We sent them our capital and intellectual property and turned them into an economic powerhouse. But instead of creating a liberal democracy and ally, we have created a fascist. xenophobic rival.

They brilliantly played off American companies and government against Europe in a race to see who could give them the most investment and knowledge. Then they screwed all of us. It's a one-way street in their favor, and we are still letting them get away with it.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:59 am

hippiewannabe wrote: A) We thought if we helped China become rich, they would turn into a liberal western-style democracy. We were naive.

B) They brilliantly played off American companies and government against Europe in a race to see who could give them the most investment and knowledge. Then they screwed all of us. It's a one-way street in their favor, and we are still letting them get away with it.

a) No we didn't. No we weren't. We didn't really care. We saw profit possibilities. End of story. Your touching notions of "help" is what is naive here.

b) They weren't "brilliantly" playing off American companies against Europe. They didn't "screw us".
Give an example of how they "screwed" us.
"Letting them get away with" what?

International relations are the manifestation of the will to survive on a global scale. Sovereign nations are sovereign. They do what they have to do to survive. In China as in the U.S.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:37 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:In each case, it was not socialism that caused those financial problems, but greed, avarice, fraud, and corruption, and outside forces like capitalists trying to break them. We do not have an example yet of a socialist economy collapsing due to structural issues.
The empirical evidence supports the theory perfectly; every significant socialist economy has collapsed. China is a good example: it was completely sealed off from any potential outside forces like mean old capitalists, and imploded, at a cost of tens of millions of deaths, and hundreds of millions doomed to misery and penury. It just doesn't work. You can't allocate resources by bureaucratic fiat, only the market can do it efficiently.

Only one problem...China's economy has indeed surpassed ours on more than one occasion. We've been neck & neck with China for several years now. Why? We send a lot of jobs there (or should I say allow) and people here in the US consume...consume of fairly sizable amount of goods that come from China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compariso ... _%28PPP%29

The reality is we should not be allowing that to happen as long as China supports communism and it's current human rights violations to exist. Until both of those are resolved no business of any kind should be allowed to go to China. Zero.
I absolutely agree with you there.

The point I was making is socialism failed. Their economy has grown fantastically since they embraced capitalism. The rulers still call themselves communist (socialist dictatorship), but they are now actually a capitalist dictatorship, i.e. fascist.

There was a strong correlation between capitalistic economic success and democracy, and we thought that implied causation. We thought if we helped China become rich, they would turn into a liberal western-style democracy. We were naive. Hitler and others proved you can have economic growth without freedom. We sent them our capital and intellectual property and turned them into an economic powerhouse. But instead of creating a liberal democracy and ally, we have created a fascist. xenophobic rival.

They brilliantly played off American companies and government against Europe in a race to see who could give them the most investment and knowledge. Then they screwed all of us. It's a one-way street in their favor, and we are still letting them get away with it.
I can vividly remember my grandfather telling me on more than one occasion..."China will take us over without firing a single shot because our leaders will allow it to happen". Roll forward to today and look at how far China has come as a result of our workings.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:17 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:Or...



And there's another issue. Princeton University economics professor Harvey Rosen said the more important question is if Obama has put the government on a path that will keep deficits stable. "And the answer is no," Rosen said, because entitlement programs, such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, have not had substantial reform.

How about reforming the Military which is 60% of the WHOLE government budget!


The deficits have largely come down as a result of the improved economy for which Obama cannot assume full credit.

Now who should take credit for the improving economy? The Tea Party? Hahahahaha
If we are reduce the Federal Debt we need to raise taxes on the Rich and Corporations to levels seen in the 1960's.
I suppose it would be impractical to enforce a certification process, but one should understand the basics of accounting, or at least the basics of arithmetic, before opining on budget matters.

The "whole budget" includes the whole budget, not just the part that has been arbitrarily designated as "discretionary".

Image
Seriously? A simplistic graphic from a right-wing web site? Where's the taxpayer monies going to corporate welfare on that bill? You realize that dollar amount dwarfs the entire expenditure on social services. Just to supplement corporate profits. Social service expenditures are an inkling of a percent of less than one in that grand picture.

It is much direr than that.

What's the return on taxpayer investment dollars with war expenditures? Supplementing corporate profits, that ol' trickle down yarn? We've seen those returns for a few decades now, haven't we. Compare it with investment in the richest resource this nation has, it's citizens. Higher education. Infrastructure and the jobs inherent within. Green technologies that take us off the petroleum teat. Discussion vs bombs. rational discussion over stoking fear and loathing of "others". Scapegoats to blame. Puuuhhhleeeeze.

As I posted earlier. Bernie has been the only candidate to inspire me to donate to a political campaign. And I'm poverty level, but have rarely been a "taker" as conservatives scream everyone who has ever been eligible for food stamps stereotypes. I manage.

Hillary is deep in the belly of the beast. I have no respect for any of the circus barkers on the Republican slate. Bernie is seasoned and makes sense. He frequently out-polls Hillary. There are no corporate logos involved in the financing of his campaign. Only citizens, like 2 million now, like me, kicking in my 30 bucks. What's so funny about corporations paying a tax rate that helps the common good of this nation, paying a living minimum wage? Investing in higher education is the biggest return on the buck for all of society, prisons are not.

Sorry about the rant, but it's so blatantly obvious, I become vexed and miffed, frustrated.

Sanders/Warren 2016.


neal
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by 72Hardtop » Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:05 pm

ruckman101 wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:Or...



And there's another issue. Princeton University economics professor Harvey Rosen said the more important question is if Obama has put the government on a path that will keep deficits stable. "And the answer is no," Rosen said, because entitlement programs, such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security, have not had substantial reform.

How about reforming the Military which is 60% of the WHOLE government budget!


The deficits have largely come down as a result of the improved economy for which Obama cannot assume full credit.

Now who should take credit for the improving economy? The Tea Party? Hahahahaha
If we are reduce the Federal Debt we need to raise taxes on the Rich and Corporations to levels seen in the 1960's.
I suppose it would be impractical to enforce a certification process, but one should understand the basics of accounting, or at least the basics of arithmetic, before opining on budget matters.

The "whole budget" includes the whole budget, not just the part that has been arbitrarily designated as "discretionary".

Image
Seriously? A simplistic graphic from a right-wing web site? Where's the taxpayer monies going to corporate welfare on that bill? You realize that dollar amount dwarfs the entire expenditure on social services. Just to supplement corporate profits. Social service expenditures are an inkling of a percent of less than one in that grand picture.

It is much direr than that.

What's the return on taxpayer investment dollars with war expenditures? Supplementing corporate profits, that ol' trickle down yarn? We've seen those returns for a few decades now, haven't we. Compare it with investment in the richest resource this nation has, it's citizens. Higher education. Infrastructure and the jobs inherent within. Green technologies that take us off the petroleum teat. Discussion vs bombs. rational discussion over stoking fear and loathing of "others". Scapegoats to blame. Puuuhhhleeeeze.

As I posted earlier. Bernie has been the only candidate to inspire me to donate to a political campaign. And I'm poverty level, but have rarely been a "taker" as conservatives scream everyone who has ever been eligible for food stamps stereotypes. I manage.

Hillary is deep in the belly of the beast. I have no respect for any of the circus barkers on the Republican slate. Bernie is seasoned and makes sense. He frequently out-polls Hillary. There are no corporate logos involved in the financing of his campaign. Only citizens, like 2 million now, like me, kicking in my 30 bucks. What's so funny about corporations paying a tax rate that helps the common good of this nation, paying a living minimum wage? Investing in higher education is the biggest return on the buck for all of society, prisons are not.

Sorry about the rant, but it's so blatantly obvious, I become vexed and miffed, frustrated.

Sanders/Warren 2016.


neal
Which is why Sanders doesn't stand a chance at getting into office. The vast majority of Americans are sick & tired of the same old dummy politician who keeps getting voted in time and time again. This is why Trumps numbers are where they are and growing. He doesn't play their game/s and he certainly doesn't want or need the money. It is because of this why he scares those in seat now in Washington DC. They know if he gets in...the party is over day 1.
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by zabo » Thu Dec 24, 2015 10:15 am

nice interview with atl rapper Killer Mike and Bernie.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/ne ... s-20151215
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Re: Bernie Sanders

Post by hippiewannabe » Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:20 pm

ruckman101 wrote:Seriously? A simplistic graphic from a right-wing web site? Where's the taxpayer monies going to corporate welfare on that bill? You realize that dollar amount dwarfs the entire expenditure on social services. Just to supplement corporate profits. Social service expenditures are an inkling of a percent of less than one in that grand picture.
Seriously? You're calling bullshit based on the graphic arts and the source, without even offering an alternative?

How about this, from whitehouse.gov, Mr. Obama's website. It's more detailed, a little harder to read, but tells the same story:

https://www.whitehouse.gov/interactive-budget

You don't see a category called "Corporate Welfare", because there isn't one. You are probably talking about tax breaks, like the Oil Depletion Allowance. I agree with you that they are bad. But what makes them stupid is having the highest corporate tax rates in the developed world, then making a joke of it with innumerable exemptions, deductions and credits. It leads to all manner of uneconomic activity, toward whatever the government was trying to promote and subsidise, and away from otherwise profitable activity that is penalized by not having tax breaks. Better to have a low rate and no complicated exceptions. The savings from getting the army of corporate and government accountants and lawyers out of the tax business and putting them to productive use would be huge.
When thousands of people believe a made-up story for a month, we call it fake news. When a billion people believe a made-up story for a thousand years, we call it a religion.

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