Baltimore Riots

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Baltimore Riots

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:21 am

Chief Operating Officer John Angelos, of the Baltimore Orioles had this to say in a series of Twitter posts:
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids’ game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don’t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.
So what do you think of this new evidence of old fractures in American society? Do these images of anarchy frighten you?
Colin
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by Bleyseng » Wed Apr 29, 2015 7:30 am

It's just the beginning and I can't believe in Seattle the incredible amount of homeless people! There are tents/tarps/cardboard houses everywhere! There is little support for low income/homeless people it seems but Seattle has spent millions on new bike lanes everywhere to fix the traffic problems pandering to the small bike lobby groups. Now that is how local government works by ignoring the big problems and focus on little groups interests.
The Seattle Police are getting ready for a May 1 demonstration/riot so we shall see......when the disenchanted riot and destroy the cherished establishment atleast it makes the news. Then maybe the real issues of low wages, lack of decent paying jobs and services will be paid attention to by the moneyed few.
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by wcfvw69 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:33 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Chief Operating Officer John Angelos, of the Baltimore Orioles had this to say in a series of Twitter posts:
That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night’s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American’s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids’ game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don’t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.
So what do you think of this new evidence of old fractures in American society? Do these images of anarchy frighten you?
Colin
While I applaud what this gentleman has said and couldn't agree with him more, I find it a bit tainted in that he himself is probably making a few million a year in his position. Who's paying his salary? Hum.. the same rich, 1% who he's complaining about. At the same time, he's surrounded by the massively over paid athletes who have driven the cost of attending a baseball game out of many peoples financial abilities. This is why I'm not a baseball fan anymore and only attend a game in person if someone is picking up the cost. It's simply pisses me off that we as a country feel it's ok to pay someone $25 million a year for 6 months work.

I think the vast majority of Americans agree that what corporate America has done to this county is criminal. How have they gotten away with it? I'm going with them lobbying the same idiot politicians that they, themselves helped put into those positions. They can only lean on the "global competitiveness" for so long.

The sad part for me is that everyone is complaining about it but NOTHING is being done to address it. The presidential race in 2015 is going to be the same ole, same ole.. Whether democrat or republican, they system is tainted and I see nothing is going to change.
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by wcfvw69 » Wed Apr 29, 2015 3:52 pm

One other thought on this subject. At some point, us SAME Americans have to step up and take responsibility for shipping our American jobs overseas due to cheaper labor costs. Why has Wal-Marts business model been so ridiculously successful? It's because Americans are cheap. We want to pay the least amount of $ we can for what products we purchase. When American companies couldn't sell their products to Wally world at a price point that made both them and the public happy, they went to companies who could. I know I need to own it. If I can buy a product that is made in Asia or other third world county that's the same quality as an American made for 40% less, I'm going to do purchase it.

I remember a TV interview with a very sharp CEO about 10 years ago. He was asked why their was such a mass exodus of American manufactoring jobs leaving to go off shore. He was very forthright in saying American companies can't pay $20 dollars an hour plus another 30% for benefits to do a $10 dollar an hour job. There's a LOT of truth in that. Lazy American workers with no skills or education want to be paid so they can live the American dream vs. doing ANY self investing in themselves to help them climb a companies ranks to higher pay scales. "What do you mean I can't make $25 an hour for inserting this bolt in a car door all day long on the factory line?
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by Bleyseng » Wed Apr 29, 2015 4:58 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:One other thought on this subject. At some point, us SAME Americans have to step up and take responsibility for shipping our American jobs overseas due to cheaper labor costs. Why has Wal-Marts business model been so ridiculously successful? It's because Americans are cheap. We want to pay the least amount of $ we can for what products we purchase. When American companies couldn't sell their products to Wally world at a price point that made both them and the public happy, they went to companies who could. I know I need to own it. If I can buy a product that is made in Asia or other third world county that's the same quality as an American made for 40% less, I'm going to do purchase it.

I remember a TV interview with a very sharp CEO about 10 years ago. He was asked why their was such a mass exodus of American manufactoring jobs leaving to go off shore. He was very forthright in saying American companies can't pay $20 dollars an hour plus another 30% for benefits to do a $10 dollar an hour job. There's a LOT of truth in that. Lazy American workers with no skills or education want to be paid so they can live the American dream vs. doing ANY self investing in themselves to help them climb a companies ranks to higher pay scales. "What do you mean I can't make $25 an hour for inserting this bolt in a car door all day long on the factory line?
If it works in Germany why can't it work here? The CEO pay is what robs the workers of a decent wage. $25 million a year is stupid
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 29, 2015 6:11 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:One other thought on this subject. At some point, us SAME Americans have to step up and take responsibility for shipping our American jobs overseas due to cheaper labor costs. Why has Wal-Marts business model been so ridiculously successful? It's because Americans are cheap. We want to pay the least amount of $ we can for what products we purchase. When American companies couldn't sell their products to Wally world at a price point that made both them and the public happy, they went to companies who could. I know I need to own it. If I can buy a product that is made in Asia or other third world county that's the same quality as an American made for 40% less, I'm going to do purchase it.
True. But at the same time, our real purchasing power has eroded so noticeably that we often cannot exercise our discretion. I am a fabulously tasteful high-quality shopper who is devoted to buying only the best available. The bad news is, I cannot afford to exercise my consumer power. WalMart has used this argument before too, but they have indentured their own employees to have to buy their cheap trash. This is where government tax policy can have a real effect on corporate decisions. If a corporation feels that it does not have a responsibility to the nation that hosts them and the citizens that make up that nation, its leadership can damn well leave this country all together. See how many take the offer . . . .
wcfvw69 wrote: I remember a TV interview with a very sharp CEO about 10 years ago. He was asked why their was such a mass exodus of American manufacturing jobs leaving to go off shore. He was very forthright in saying American companies can't pay $20 dollars an hour plus another 30% for benefits to do a $10 dollar an hour job. There's a LOT of truth in that. Lazy American workers with no skills or education want to be paid so they can live the American dream vs. doing ANY self investing in themselves to help them climb a companies ranks to higher pay scales. "What do you mean I can't make $25 an hour for inserting this bolt in a car door all day long on the factory line?
I don't buy this Race To The Bottom argument for a couple of reasons. Number one, flat out, the minimum wage in this country was $22.00/hr in 1969 adjusted for today's dollar. That sharp son-of-a-bitch CEO may have the sheer arrogance to declare that the job is only worth $10.00/hr, but that is NOT how we establish the value of a man's TIME on the job. Pushing computer keys as an "investment manager" does NOTHING for the wealth of the country, does not add an iota of value, has been proven to require NO discretion, monkeys got an equal return, yet these guys skim millions of dollars in income in some cases. Do you think the argument for that kind of pay is any less bullshit than adding to the wealth of the country one car door at a time?

Now please read carefully here (I often get shoeboxed as a "marxist libtard bleedingheart socialist" but read and memorize . . . I am happy when entrepreneurs get rrrrriiiiicccccchhhhh! Make money if you make this world a better place! Go! Invent! Design! Be brilliant! Beat every other nation's best! Make great beautiful stuff! Got it? Now pay your taxes.

That is all I want. Play hard, but play fair and stop being such utter assholes as those who sneak in tax dodges for themselves, that is despicable as hell. Pay your taxes and be grateful that workers get a decent education, safe water, good roads, chip IN you selfish bastards. There are many rich people who are glad to pay their taxes! I would never hold their wealth against them, but they need to pay their taxes.

Wage pay HAS to reflect the serious truth that it is not about "talent" so much as time. If a Gift From God human being gives you, Mr.SnottySharpCEO, his God-given time on this Earth to make you insanely wealthy selling the cars he put together, he DESERVES to make a self-supporting living, PERIOD. No arguments.

And you wcfvw69, need to keep your eye on the FACT that your fellow American who drags himself out of bed at 6:00AM to go to the factory to work each day, is worthy of all due respect and a living wage. The FACT is that your fellow Americans are not "lazy" by any metric. We work harder and longer than any other industrialized country on Earth, we have fewer sick days, shorter vacations, and lousy maternity leave, but the doubling of our productivity in the past thirty years, has been rewarded by a drop in our real incomes. Look it up. Why would anyone here dump on the rest of us down here in the trenches? When I meet autoworkers, I hope they enjoy every damn nickel they take home. Same for these poor motel maids and clerks and convenience store cashiers, they deserve a living wage. Sharp CEO needs an adjustment comeuppance and it will be richly deserved. You know why? Because as he sneers at lazy Americans who "don't deserve $25.00/hr", he has managed to take an undeserved 500% pay increase in the last thirty years and his "productivity" and hours worked have actually dropped.

To paraphrase you, "At some point, us (RICH) Americans have to step up and take responsibility for shipping our American jobs overseas due to (greed)".
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by wcfvw69 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:12 pm

For any business to be solvent and viable, it has to bring in more money than it spends. Eveyone knows LABOR is the most expensive part of any business. Sadly, with this, each position at said business needs to have a market value that it can pay per hour for said position. Obviously, it's basic economics.
Now, when I used the term "lazy Americans", it was in the context of people who chronically bitch and moan about their wage yet doing NOTHING to make themselves more valuable at their job or on the job market. An example-

You have a person with no skills that washes cars as a car dealership. He bitches and moans about his low pay. His co-worker doing the same job RECOGNIZES that to earn a better wage, he needs to INVEST in his skill set. So, he keeps his job and takes mechanic classes after work. He then gets PROMOTED to a better paying position as a mechanic which provides better pay.

I would NEVER pick on anyone who drags his ass to a poor paying job each day and works his butt off. I will however tell the same person to shut his pie hole when he bitches about his lousy pay while doing nothing to get better skills for a better job or better pay. At some point, folks need to take ownership for their positions in life.

Now, you'll get NO argument from me about the gap in CEO pay and their average worker. It's criminal, plain and simple. At my last job, the owner of the business was a self made man. He had a Gulfstream business jet, helicopter, houses in Mexico and other spots, a massive yacht based up/down the pacific with a crew on board. He flew upper managers down to his boat in Mexico on occasion. I went a couple of times. I've seen first hand the gap between the average American and the rich. The habor in La Paz was exquisite. It was STUFFED with some of the biggest yachts I'd seen. Some had 10 million dollar helicoptors on them. They were all owned by the richest 1% of America.
My point is I know first hand how the 1% live. I've seen the magazines that are at FBO's where the rich refuel their private jets. I've been to their hangers and mansions. They live a totally different life than the average folk.
I'm a capitalist by nature. Like you Colin, I applad folks who start with nothing and hit it big. It's the American dream. They only problem that we are speaking off is American capitalism has gone off the rails due to GREED by many of these same people who've made it. The question is how does it get reigned back in when the 1% are the ones controlling who's elected and the laws that are set for their benefit..
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Apr 30, 2015 6:47 pm

"The question is how does it get reined back in when the 1% are the ones controlling who's elected and the laws that are set for their benefit.."

By putting the upper income tax rate back to 70%! These guys have bought the congressman/senators with their millions and reduced the tax rate to 15% which is a joke.....
There will be more riots just like in the 60's when LA burned, DC burned as people get sick and tired of it all....
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by Amskeptic » Sat May 02, 2015 6:01 am

wcfvw69 wrote:when I used the term "lazy Americans", it was in the context of people who chronically bitch and moan about their wage yet doing NOTHING to make themselves more valuable at their job or on the job market. An example-

You have a person with no skills that washes cars as a car dealership. He bitches and moans about his low pay. His co-worker doing the same job RECOGNIZES that to earn a better wage, he needs to INVEST in his skill set. So, he keeps his job and takes mechanic classes after work. He then gets PROMOTED to a better paying position as a mechanic which provides better pay.

I would NEVER pick on anyone who drags his ass to a poor paying job each day and works his butt off. I will however tell the same person to shut his pie hole when he bitches about his lousy pay while doing nothing to get better skills for a better job or better pay. At some point, folks need to take ownership for their positions in life.
This is where we diverge, then. Job mobility in this country is a losing proposition. The numbers do not allow everybody to better themselves. The loss of jobs has been staggering as we have automated. We are becoming a service economy. It is a cop-out to accuse people of not wanting to better themselves. I see motel maids WalMart cashiers, you name it, trying to go to school, and their employers put them on stand-by "if it gets busy" and how the hell can they organize and improve their lives? I say, if you put in your time, you deserve to have a living wage. Period. No contempt allowed.
wcfvw69 wrote: American capitalism has gone off the rails due to GREED. The question is how does it get reined back in when the 1% are the ones controlling who's elected and the laws that are set for their benefit..
That is the question. Let's start with understanding that they will not voluntarily give up their ill-gotten gains. So we have to look at history. What has happened every single time in all of human history when the upper class lost respect for everyone else?
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by Bleyseng » Sat May 02, 2015 6:51 am

"That is the question. Let's start with understanding that they will not voluntarily give up their ill-gotten gains. So we have to look at history. What has happened every single time in all of human history when the upper class lost respect for everyone else?
Colin"

In US History we had the Roaring Twenty's and then the Great Depression which changed the direction of this country. In the 30's FDR changed the taxes code to place heavy taxes on the Rich and Corporations which evened out the Wealth of this country in the 50's. Slowly the Rich and chopped away at the Tax Code until the 80's where Reagan came up with his Trickle Down bullshit.
We have to place the tax burden back on the Rich and Corporations, not on the Poor and Middle class. CEO pay is outrageous in proportion to worker pay and you can't tell me one person is way more a valuable than another.

Race is still such a big part of the problem in America. I just don't get why people still hate each other because of the color of their skin! Having lived for 4 years in a Black/Brown country coming back to live in the US is a shock. People need to get over it and appreciate our differences and nuances of cultures.
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat May 02, 2015 10:43 am

Amskeptic wrote:

It is a cop-out to accuse people of not wanting to better themselves. I see motel maids WalMart cashiers, you name it, trying to go to school, and their employers put them on stand-by "if it gets busy" and how the hell can they organize and improve their lives? I say, if you put in your time, you deserve to have a living wage. Period. No contempt allowed.
I couldn't disagree more. There's ALWAYS ways people can invest in their personal skill sets to make more $ and achieve a better job than an entry level one that pays minimum wage. I know far too many folks who worked 50 hour a week jobs and took night classes or weekend classes. There's also all the online college classes folks can take as well. I've worked with so many folks who had no college education at all and were doing minimum wage positions. Several now have 4 year degrees and one friend of mine has his masters. These folks took online classes over a period of YEARS and are now in positions earning very nice compensation packages.

Government nor society can "fix" everyone. There is a large portion of this country's population that are very complacent and lazy and are content with their social/economic status. Living paycheck to paycheck is perfectly fine for them. I'm not knocking these folks, what so ever. There is a strong need for their labor in business. I just don't think these same people should bitch and moan about their wages when EVERYONE in this country can better themselves with the right motivation.

As I mentioned before, businesses can not afford to pay a position $25 dollars an hour based only on tenure w/a company. There is market value for jobs. Trust me, I had to have plenty of conversations with semi drivers that had maxed out on the company pay skill. They were upset that their was no further upward mobility compensation wise. These same drivers where making $22+ dollars an hour and w/overtime where making $70k a year. The market value for their positions per hour in this city was around $16 dollars an hour.
We also had entry level equipment washers that we did pay above minimum wage. They were typically kids w/no job skills. When we hired them, we were extremely vocal that this was an entry level position that most climbed out of to do other positions. Part of the local managers job was to be their mentor. Get them excited about going within the company. They could be promoted to a small truck driver. They could be promoted to an inside sales role if their personality matched the position. They could be promoted to the shop if they had mechanical aptitude. I'm proud to say that many of these kids today busted their butts and invested in themselves are are now managers of locations. Obviously, some didn't want to work for it and are still in those positions are moved on to other entry level jobs.

That's what makes this country great. There are opportunities for everyone to be successful. They just have to put some effort into it to get there.
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by asiab3 » Sat May 02, 2015 4:00 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:
It is a cop-out to accuse people of not wanting to better themselves. I see motel maids WalMart cashiers, you name it, trying to go to school, and their employers put them on stand-by "if it gets busy" and how the hell can they organize and improve their lives? I say, if you put in your time, you deserve to have a living wage. Period. No contempt allowed.
I couldn't disagree more. There's ALWAYS ways people can invest in their personal skill sets to make more $ and achieve a better job than an entry level one that pays minimum wage.
I'm not crazy when people use their own personal story as evidence, because that's only one out of millions. But here I go.

I am in the highest position possible in the world at my job. To make any more money, I would have to transfer to Denmark or the Czech Republic. (But then I wouldn't be bothered with the same issues that we discuss here. And I wouldn't earn any MORE, I would just pay less to live there.)

I live above the federal poverty line, but well below the adjusted "economic hardship measure" which takes things like cost of living and quality of life into account.

So using my case as an example, what can I do? (I know very well what my options are if I want to earn more. Like leave it and start a new career. But in your example above, what are my options?)

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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat May 02, 2015 7:31 pm

asiab3 wrote:
So using my case as an example, what can I do? (I know very well what my options are if I want to earn more. Like leave it and start a new career. But in your example above, what are my options?)

Robbie
You're an intelligent young man Robbie. You know the answer :)
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by Bleyseng » Sat May 02, 2015 10:07 pm

"There is a large portion of this country's population that are very complacent and lazy and are content with their social/economic status."
This is some of that GOP bullshit like "welfare moms". How about those complacent Wall Street crooks? If you are living check to check 60 hrs a week pulling yourself up by the bootstraps is bullshit as you don't even have boots.
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Re: Baltimore Riots

Post by asiab3 » Sun May 03, 2015 2:01 am

wcfvw69 wrote:
asiab3 wrote:
So using my case as an example, what can I do? (I know very well what my options are if I want to earn more. Like leave it and start a new career. But in your example above, what are my options?)

Robbie
You're an intelligent young man Robbie. You know the answer :)
Right, but I don't think there's room for much "upward" movement in this situation. Plus, I bitch to the administration all the time about our pay levels… :rabbit: I'm not sure if a lateral work move still fits your description, that's why I'm curious to hear how that works in.

I've always wanted to see an "undercover CEO" experiment, where some big money executive was forced to start out working as one of their fry cooks/baggers/greeters/schleppers with no money or education, and see how far he/she could get before giving up and restructuring the company. Surely the Human Experience would get to them? This could be a reality show. Just like how I want white people to be able to truly experience the prejudices that non-whites are subjected to their entire lives. But that isn't so feasible.


Looks like Phoenix next week in the bus. PM 'ya later Bill!

Robbie
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