The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:13 am

pj wrote:Colin, if someone had listed your same sources touting something from the GW Bush white house, you know there are people on this site who would have said something to the effect of "dirty lying bastards cooking the books". So why would you be surprised that there are people on this site who see your sources and say something to the effect of "dirty lying bastards, cooking the books"?
No, not really, pj. George Bush was treated with a respect that has been lost during the Obama Administration. Nobody gave Bush pushback when he cited the CBO, or the Bureau of Labor Statistics. We DID ridicule Donald Rumsfeld. We did ask what Paul Wolfowitz was smoking when he said the Iraq War would pay for itself. But we did not challenge the statistics coming out of career offices.

False Equivalence does not fly when it is so clear now that there are deeply hidden agendas in this country that revolve around dark money.
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Here's a Real Equivalence:
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:26 am

72Hardtop wrote:"Shinai sasenai"
Whadju call me? :cyclopsani:

I appreciate your staying power, 72Hardtop, here in Free Speech, I have seen others amp up and burn out over less . . .

If we are to inform each other, we need good authority. Today's internet is a difficult place to get good authority, but it is nonetheless possible. If we dismiss all sources of information as illegitimate, we end up powerless.

If you look at the assault on information going on in this country, there is *definitely* a partisan bias.
You won't see any Democrats exaggerating the costs or the deaths of the Iraq War, no we under-estimated it. Democrats did not exaggerate the costs of Bush's Medicare Part D, no, we underestimated it. etc.

As of today, the success of the ACA is being undermined by an attack on the sources. The reduction in unemployment is being undermined by an attack on the sources of this data. Strangely, the party that declares itself as devoted to the exceptionalism of the United States has been singularly devoted to a destructive pessimism of our current circumstance. Seeing as Jimmy Carter was savaged for his comments regarding the malaise of the late 70's, it is odd to see such malaise talk coming from the "sunny" Republicans of today.

The agendaes are clear. Good luck to the American voter in this dark money hail storm about to beset us.
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by asiab3 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:07 pm

With the case in South Carolina coming to light, I also wanted to share a video that was unfortunately streaming at work today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suz00KbYhwU

In a nutshell, a man allegidly stole a horse, then this unfolded. This was the first online video I could find; the commentary seems to be coming from the camera operators, not any news heads or law enforcement. I prefer it. (Understand when she says "officer down," at the beginning, she's talking about them tripping/falling in the dirt, NOT because of anything the suspect did.)

I breifly mentioned that I'm almost glad this is happening. While this type of power abuse should NEVER be happening, if it is happenening then it needs to be brought to light.
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:38 pm

asiab3 wrote:With the case in South Carolina coming to light, I also wanted to share a video that was unfortunately streaming at work today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suz00KbYhwU

In a nutshell, a man allegidly stole a horse, then this unfolded. This was the first online video I could find; the commentary seems to be coming from the camera operators, not any news heads or law enforcement. I prefer it. (Understand when she says "officer down," at the beginning, she's talking about them tripping/falling in the dirt, NOT because of anything the suspect did.)

I breifly mentioned that I'm almost glad this is happening. While this type of power abuse should NEVER be happening, if it is happenening then it needs to be brought to light.

Any abuse remains the question. Given the lengthy pursuit involved I'd say he got off easy. Imagine the uproar had the suspect killed several during his being pursued...or perhaps not. Departments across the US are already having trouble filling positions and this will only get worse. Why? No one wants to be on the evening news. The results? Departments hiring will lower the standards to fill the positions and the public will end up with a slew of issues & outcomes as a result.
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:48 pm

asiab3 wrote:With the case in South Carolina coming to light, I also wanted to share a video that was unfortunately streaming at work today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suz00KbYhwU

In a nutshell, a man allegidly stole a horse, then this unfolded. This was the first online video I could find; the commentary seems to be coming from the camera operators, not any news heads or law enforcement. I prefer it. (Understand when she says "officer down," at the beginning, she's talking about them tripping/falling in the dirt, NOT because of anything the suspect did.)

I breifly mentioned that I'm almost glad this is happening. While this type of power abuse should NEVER be happening, if it is happenening then it needs to be brought to light.
This is the power of modern technology in the hands of the people.
I love the cameras stuffed in teddy bears so the nanny can be assessed.
I love the street videos of cops-in-action so we can assess their performance.
I find it obviously troubling that Illinois, Texas, and Florida want to outlaw street videos of cops-in-action.

In the hands of authorities, I am nervous but appreciative that a criminal can be hunted down through phone records and credit card/debit card transactions anywhere in the country.

Thing is, what good cop would not happily don a vest-with-camera, to protect himself from allegations of abuse? I have not read of an officer mentioning this.

So, the Walter Scott case was an egregious crime, but if you read the initial police report, it sounded like boilerplate police report with typical "suspect tried to reach for my weapon" "suspect was belligerent" "I feared for my life" yet the video was such a proof otherwise.

That new adage, "if you are not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" should go both ways . . . :cyclopsani:
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:51 pm

72Hardtop wrote:Departments across the US are already having trouble filling positions and this will only get worse. Why? No one wants to be on the evening news.
Last I heard, budget cuts were the reason that departments weren't hiring, not because there is any sort of real dialogue that has established that "nobody wants to be on the evening news".

They have trouble filling positions due to lack of required physical conditioning, yes.
ColinL.O.R.P.C. yes, too
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:56 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
asiab3 wrote:With the case in South Carolina coming to light, I also wanted to share a video that was unfortunately streaming at work today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suz00KbYhwU

In a nutshell, a man allegidly stole a horse, then this unfolded. This was the first online video I could find; the commentary seems to be coming from the camera operators, not any news heads or law enforcement. I prefer it. (Understand when she says "officer down," at the beginning, she's talking about them tripping/falling in the dirt, NOT because of anything the suspect did.)

I breifly mentioned that I'm almost glad this is happening. While this type of power abuse should NEVER be happening, if it is happenening then it needs to be brought to light.
This is the power of modern technology in the hands of the people.
I love the cameras stuffed in teddy bears so the nanny can be assessed.
I love the street videos of cops-in-action so we can assess their performance.
I find it obviously troubling that Illinois, Texas, and Florida want to outlaw street videos of cops-in-action.

In the hands of authorities, I am nervous but appreciative that a criminal can be hunted down through phone records and credit card/debit card transactions anywhere in the country.

Thing is, what good cop would not happily don a vest-with-camera, to protect himself from allegations of abuse? I have not read of an officer mentioning this.

So, the Walter Scott case was an egregious crime, but if you read the initial police report, it sounded like boilerplate police report with typical "suspect tried to reach for my weapon" "suspect was belligerent" "I feared for my life" yet the video was such a proof otherwise.

That new adage, "if you are not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about" should go both ways . . . :cyclopsani:
Colin
Watching the video closely...after the suspect goes prone he then quickly comes up while reaching for his waistband area. This could have ended with far different results. The taser a lot of times isn't effective due to clothing, taser issue, missed shot, certain drug use by suspect etc...

In the end he got off lucky...very lucky.
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:10 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:Departments across the US are already having trouble filling positions and this will only get worse. Why? No one wants to be on the evening news.
Last I heard, budget cuts were the reason that departments weren't hiring, not because there is any sort of real dialogue that has established that "nobody wants to be on the evening news".

They have trouble filling positions due to lack of required physical conditioning, yes.
ColinL.O.R.P.C. yes, too

Again...you must be on the inside to know this. Being retired (law enforcement) budget issues were & are only part of the problem but not the majority. Another big issue is a lot of departments are being faced with many within the ranks at/near retirement time and no one wanting to fill the slots. You wont hear whining from within the ranks publicly. What you will see is increased response times, increase in crime rate/s overtime and more issues involving questionable use of force due to standards being lowered to fill vacant positions. In time departments will more or less be forced to lower the standards to fill vacancies or risk losing funding of already tight budgets for some departments. The following article/s highlights only part of the issue...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=96570

https://www.facebook.com/KREM2/posts/10151397508306301 (Notice the loosening requirements for hiring)

http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/maga ... _id=102006
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by ruckman101 » Sat Apr 18, 2015 12:42 am

Let me pipe in.

The police protect property, something increasingly only corporations own.


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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 18, 2015 7:47 am

ruckman101 wrote:Let me pipe in.
The police protect property, something increasingly only corporations own.
neal
You are right about that.
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by pj » Sun Apr 19, 2015 5:29 pm

Colin, I bet those cops that came to your aid, when you got your clock cleaned in Colorado weren't illegitimate. I would also bet that you were pretty damn glad to see those lads and lasses in blue then as you and the young woman who hit you were laid up on the roadside wondering what the hell just happened. I cannot find the write up of that, but I believe you spoke highly of the various emergency people who helped you.
Are there bad cops? Yeah. Are there piss poor bankers, anarchists, preachers, teachers, VW mechanics, politicians, owner of one specific web site excluded and of course the writer of this missive too? Yeah, so what, lets see what happens if you disband them. Wait don't have to wait and see, we need only to look at Ferguson and see what folks will do to their own friends and neighbors when anarchy rules the night.

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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:05 pm

pj wrote:Colin, I bet those cops that came to your aid, when you got your clock cleaned in Colorado weren't illegitimate. I would also bet that you were pretty damn glad to see those lads and lasses in blue then as you and the young woman who hit you were laid up on the roadside wondering what the hell just happened. I cannot find the write up of that, but I believe you spoke highly of the various emergency people who helped you.
Pj, pj, pj . . . pj. If you were a bona-fida participatin' member of this fine forum, and read ALL of my fun stories with pictures, you would have been privvy to so many instances of me having a fine time with cops, border patrols, DEA agents, you would have read of the long conversations I have shared with officers about their children, college expenses, their insurance plans, conversations about their bosses, conversations about why I was driving in my underwear at 121*, why I was waxing my seat pedestals at abandoned gas stations, but let's not go into it right here, let's answer your question:

If you READ of when I got my "clock cleaned in Colorado", you would have read how there were no police there until after I was carted away against my will, the fire chief and I had a good laugh the next morning because some young dumb cop yelled at the fire chief for tampering with a "crime scene" (I had asked him to get my wallet and laptop) because the cop thought my glovebox coffee in the ziplock bag was some exotic hash (remember the "Morning Wood Cafe"? Was his name Brandt? who gave me some his fine coffee grounds). The fire chief called him a hot-headed new-hire hard-on.

You don't have to lecture ME on what is fine or not fine about law enforcement, pj, I lived in New York City, I lived in Los Angeles California, I have been on the road for thirteen years in every metropolis in the nation, I interact with a greater diversity of police than anyone here. And whaddyaknow? I have never had a breakdown in communication with a police occifer, yet.

THAT SAID, I'm NOT stupid! I AM white, and I have been right on the fine line of watching cops size me up and I know exactly how and why interactions can go terribly terribly wrong. So thank-you, but I am not buying into any "lads and lasses in blue" TODAY. I can size up and sniff out psychological authoritarian need in a whole lotta officers I have interacted with. I can play along because, fortunately, I am not a dispossessed bleak angry disenfranchised young black man who has been cut already by a thousand and one little cuts. I have been spared and released to continue my wandering VW bus day a thousand and one times because I am an articulate whitey with a nice looking car. see:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=8759
pj wrote: Are there bad cops? Yeah. so what, lets see what happens if you disband them. Wait don't have to wait and see, we need only to look at Ferguson and see what folks will do to their own friends and neighbors when anarchy rules the night.
Why would you veer from sensible to stupid? Who here is mentioned disbanding the police? Who here? Why set up a rhetorical roadblock? Why?

You think Ferguson is evidence of what people will do to their own friends and neighbors, is that what you perceive of Ferguson? Pj, I drove home during the Rodney King riots in L.A. I remember well what anarchy looks like. Ferguson had reasons, so did the Rodney King riots. The news did not pick up on what I saw with my own eyes, pj, the little white boy yuppies in their BMWs jumping into the electronics stores and coming out just as loaded up as the blacks were with TV sets and mobile phones. I was shocked, pj, shocked, I tell ya, I thought whiteys were so much better behaved than THAT.
not

Again and again again and again and again, again, we see blacks getting pasted and shot and killed (and yesterday in Baltimore, an innocent black 25 year old man died after getting his spine severed in police custody! Yesterday.

Meanwhile, people like you do not mention the runamok whiteys who have burned buildings and city buses and flipped over patrol cars and destroyed stores, 30 arrests and 50 fires reported in one night, and how about 60,000 rioters that led to the death of a 21 year-old student? Oh, that's just "kids" having "fun" . . .
Denver 1998 Superbowl
San Francisco 2014 after winning against the Royals
Vancouver 2011 after losing the Stanley Cup
University of Kentucky 2012 defeated Louisville in the Final Four, with more than
Red Sox 2004 win

You should LOOK at what those people did to their own streets and they did not have any grievance or cause or nothing but dumb mob alcohol-fueled savagery, good lord, lay off your stereotypical horsepucky.
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Fri Apr 24, 2015 9:15 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
pj wrote:Colin, I bet those cops that came to your aid, when you got your clock cleaned in Colorado weren't illegitimate. I would also bet that you were pretty damn glad to see those lads and lasses in blue then as you and the young woman who hit you were laid up on the roadside wondering what the hell just happened. I cannot find the write up of that, but I believe you spoke highly of the various emergency people who helped you.
Pj, pj, pj . . . pj. If you were a bona-fida participatin' member of this fine forum, and read ALL of my fun stories with pictures, you would have been privvy to so many instances of me having a fine time with cops, border patrols, DEA agents, you would have read of the long conversations I have shared with officers about their children, college expenses, their insurance plans, conversations about their bosses, conversations about why I was driving in my underwear at 121*, why I was waxing my seat pedestals at abandoned gas stations, but let's not go into it right here, let's answer your question:

If you READ of when I got my "clock cleaned in Colorado", you would have read how there were no police there until after I was carted away against my will, the fire chief and I had a good laugh the next morning because some young dumb cop yelled at the fire chief for tampering with a "crime scene" (I had asked him to get my wallet and laptop) because the cop thought my glovebox coffee in the ziplock bag was some exotic hash (remember the "Morning Wood Cafe"? Was his name Brandt? who gave me some his fine coffee grounds). The fire chief called him a hot-headed new-hire hard-on.

You don't have to lecture ME on what is fine or not fine about law enforcement, pj, I lived in New York City, I lived in Los Angeles California, I have been on the road for thirteen years in every metropolis in the nation, I interact with a greater diversity of police than anyone here. And whaddyaknow? I have never had a breakdown in communication with a police occifer, yet.

THAT SAID, I'm NOT stupid! I AM white, and I have been right on the fine line of watching cops size me up and I know exactly how and why interactions can go terribly terribly wrong. So thank-you, but I am not buying into any "lads and lasses in blue" TODAY. I can size up and sniff out psychological authoritarian need in a whole lotta officers I have interacted with. I can play along because, fortunately, I am not a dispossessed bleak angry disenfranchised young black man who has been cut already by a thousand and one little cuts. I have been spared and released to continue my wandering VW bus day a thousand and one times because I am an articulate whitey with a nice looking car. see:

viewtopic.php?f=58&t=8759
pj wrote: Are there bad cops? Yeah. so what, lets see what happens if you disband them. Wait don't have to wait and see, we need only to look at Ferguson and see what folks will do to their own friends and neighbors when anarchy rules the night.
Why would you veer from sensible to stupid? Who here is mentioned disbanding the police? Who here? Why set up a rhetorical roadblock? Why?

You think Ferguson is evidence of what people will do to their own friends and neighbors, is that what you perceive of Ferguson? Pj, I drove home during the Rodney King riots in L.A. I remember well what anarchy looks like. Ferguson had reasons, so did the Rodney King riots. The news did not pick up on what I saw with my own eyes, pj, the little white boy yuppies in their BMWs jumping into the electronics stores and coming out just as loaded up as the blacks were with TV sets and mobile phones. I was shocked, pj, shocked, I tell ya, I thought whiteys were so much better behaved than THAT.
not

Again and again again and again and again, again, we see blacks getting pasted and shot and killed (and yesterday in Baltimore, an innocent black 25 year old man died after getting his spine severed in police custody! Yesterday.

Meanwhile, people like you do not mention the runamok whiteys who have burned buildings and city buses and flipped over patrol cars and destroyed stores, 30 arrests and 50 fires reported in one night, and how about 60,000 rioters that led to the death of a 21 year-old student? Oh, that's just "kids" having "fun" . . .
Denver 1998 Superbowl
San Francisco 2014 after winning against the Royals
Vancouver 2011 after losing the Stanley Cup
University of Kentucky 2012 defeated Louisville in the Final Four, with more than
Red Sox 2004 win

You should LOOK at what those people did to their own streets and they did not have any grievance or cause or nothing but dumb mob alcohol-fueled savagery, good lord, lay off your stereotypical horsepucky.
Colin It's About All Of Us

All those (events) you make mention of have (1) thing in common...Alcohol and a lot of it. Stupid is as stupid does.
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:31 pm

Here you go...So why aren't white people rioting in the streets?
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Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Westy78 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 2:31 pm

72Hardtop wrote:Here you go...So why aren't white people rioting in the streets?

I'd be curious to know how many of those white people killed were unarmed and shot in the back while they ran away? I'm no knee jerk reactionary. Some of these recent cases of police violence against minorities or even non-minorities have nuance and untold details that we don't get to hear through mainstream media. I get that, but when it's blatant pack mentality or pure incompetence on the part of police caught on camera it's pretty obvious there's a problem with our current law enforcement system.

As a person who possesses a concealed carry permit I know that no matter what the situation was that led up to a confrontation with someone, once they turn and run they are no longer a threat and I have absolutely no justification to shoot them as they flee. I also know that as a holder of that permit that I will be held to a higher standard regardless of the situation by society and the law. Why should it be any different for a cop?
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