The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Over 18 ONLY! For grown-ups. . .

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:52 pm

JLT wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:We need government who looks constantly at new ways to cut and keep prices from going up across the board.
Yes, we do. I sincerely hope that you don't think that the Republicans are going to be that government. Their track record certainly doesn't support that.

But my question now is: how did this discussion about police excesses somehow morph into a debate on health care? And when are we going to bring gun control or abortion or illegal immigration into the discussion? When threads aren't kept on track, that's what's likely to happen.
Gun control? It's called the 2nd Amendment. It takes a finger to pull a trigger. Remember both the the Dems and Republicans signed off on Obama care without even haven read it. Both share equal responsibility on it's approval. One will find it extremely difficult to find anyone who works in healthcare supportive of it.
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:10 am

72Hardtop wrote:
Gun control? It's called the 2nd Amendment. It takes a finger to pull a trigger. Remember both the the Dems and Republicans signed off on Obama care without even haven read it. Both share equal responsibility on it's approval. One will find it extremely difficult to find anyone who works in healthcare supportive of it.
Look at our Nation's entire history regarding the 2nd Amendment. You will not find blanket acceptance of arming every single citizen on any given calm sunny day in America. We have a history of debate regarding the 2nd Amendment.

Can we stop with this canard that Congress signed off without "even having read it"? Congress worked on the ACA, not Obama, Congress debated the points, Congress people involved in the writing of the report shared their facets to the final product with each other. Do *you* read every word of "click to accept" legalbleagleblatherblab?

Ask numerous hospitals that run emergency rooms, and they will tell you that expenses have increased more slowly under the ACA, peer review standards have improved the bottom line against infections and errors, and the entire healthcare percentage of GDP is showing improvement. We are only a couple of years in. I would not "ask" a hospital or a HMO if they "liked" it. I would look at numbers and most importantly, I would ask my fellow Americans who would be dead or bankrupt under the old "anything goes, it is about profit!" regime how they like it.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:00 am

Amskeptic wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:
Gun control? It's called the 2nd Amendment. It takes a finger to pull a trigger. Remember both the the Dems and Republicans signed off on Obama care without even haven read it. Both share equal responsibility on it's approval. One will find it extremely difficult to find anyone who works in healthcare supportive of it.
Look at our Nation's entire history regarding the 2nd Amendment. You will not find blanket acceptance of arming every single citizen on any given calm sunny day in America. We have a history of debate regarding the 2nd Amendment.

Can we stop with this canard that Congress signed off without "even having read it"? Congress worked on the ACA, not Obama, Congress debated the points, Congress people involved in the writing of the report shared their facets to the final product with each other. Do *you* read every word of "click to accept" legalbleagleblatherblab?

Ask numerous hospitals that run emergency rooms, and they will tell you that expenses have increased more slowly under the ACA, peer review standards have improved the bottom line against infections and errors, and the entire healthcare percentage of GDP is showing improvement. We are only a couple of years in. I would not "ask" a hospital or a HMO if they "liked" it. I would look at numbers and most importantly, I would ask my fellow Americans who would be dead or bankrupt under the old "anything goes, it is about profit!" regime how they like it.
Colin
I do work in a hospital. Costs have not been curbed. In fact most people will find out that in most cases ACA will either:

1. Cost more out of pocket
2. Not cover their cost/s
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 31, 2015 8:34 am

72Hardtop wrote:Costs have not been curbed. In fact most people will find out that in most cases ACA will either:
1. Cost more out of pocket
2. Not cover their cost/s
Anecdotes are one thing . . . but the facts are in. The ACA is actually performing better than expected.

************************************************************************************
NOVEMBER 2013

From the White House Council of Economic Advisers:
The Affordable Care Act has resulted in significantly reducing the per capita cost of health care.
To be clear, the per capita cost of health care is rising but the ACA has significantly reduced the growth in health care costs. That’s different.
Per capita health care costs have been rising at just under 3 percent a year over the last four years,
but that’s less than half the average annual growth in the preceding eight years.

• Health care spending growth is the lowest on record. According to the most recent
projections, real per capita health care spending has grown at an estimated average
annual rate of just 1.3 percent over the three years since 2010. This is the lowest rate on
record for any three-year period and less than one-third the long-term historical
average stretching back to 1965.
• Health care price inflation is at its lowest rate in 50 years. Recent years have also seen
exceptionally slow growth in the growth of prices in the health care sector, in addition
to total spending. Measured using personal consumption expenditure price indices,
health care inflation is currently running at just 1 percent on a year-over-year basis, the
lowest level since January 1962. (Health care inflation measured using the medical CPI
is at levels not seen since September 1972.)
• Recent slow growth in health care spending has substantially improved the long-term
Federal budget outlook. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has reduced its
projections of future Medicare and Medicaid spending in 2020 by $147 billion (0.6
percent of GDP) since August 2010. This represents about a 10 percent reduction in
projected spending on these programs. These revisions primarily reflect the recent slow
growth in health care spending
• The ACA is contributing to the recent slow growth in health care prices and spending
and is improving quality of care. ACA provisions that reduce Medicare overpayments to
private insurers and medical providers are contributing to the recent slow growth in
health care prices and spending. In addition, ACA reforms that aim to improve the
quality of care are reducing hospital readmission rates and increasing provider
participation in payment models designed to promote high-quality, integrated care.
• New economic research shows that the ACA’s Medicare reforms are likely to reduce
health care spending and improve quality system-wide. Recent research implies that
reforms to Medicare will have “spillover effects” that reduce costs and improve quality
system-wide. In economic terms, this suggests that efforts to reform Medicare’s
payment system are “public goods.”
• Accounting for “spillovers” implies that the ACA’s effect on health care price inflation
may be much larger than previously understood. The direct effect of ACA provisions
that reduce Medicare overpayments to private insurers and medical providers has been
to reduce health care price inflation by an estimated 0.2 percent per year since 2010.
Accounting for the “spillover effects” discussed above raises this estimate to 0.5 percent
per year, which represents a substantial fraction of the recent slowdown.

**************************************************************************
NOVEMBER 2014

Healthcare spending in the US grows at slowest rate since 1960

By Elise Viebeck - 12/03/14
U.S. healthcare spending grew 3.6 percent in 2013, the slowest rate on record since 1960, federal health officials reported Wednesday.

The figures represent good news for the Obama administration in its effort to contain the growth of healthcare costs, though experts disagreed on how much the federal healthcare reform law has played a role.

Total medical expenditures in the United States reached $2.9 trillion last year, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) said in an annual report.

The total share of the economy devoted to health remained largely the same, at 17.4 percent, while health spending per person was $9,255, up from $8,915 in 2012, the report stated.
"This report is another piece of evidence that our efforts to reform the healthcare delivery system are working," said CMS Administrator Marilyn Tavenner in a statement.

Civil servants who prepared the report said ObamaCare influenced the slowdown but said the economy was the biggest factor.

"The most prominent provisions of the Affordable Care Act were implemented in 2014 and will be discussed in our historical report next year," said Micah Hartman, a statistician in the Office of the Actuary at CMS.

The conflicting emphases highlight a perennial policy debate over the historically low rise in medical spending over the last five years.

Supporters of the Affordable Care Act are eager to tie the trend to the law's reforms, while actuaries say the relationship between economic growth and health spending is a more likely factor.

The White House touted the news as evidence ObamaCare is working.

"The Affordable Care Act has also made a meaningful contribution to recent trends by introducing payment reforms in Medicare and other public programs," wrote Jason Furman, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, in a blog post Wednesday.

"These reforms … are generating significant savings in Medicare and, if recent research results are correct, catalyzing changes in the private sector that are generating additional savings."

Republican leaders on Capitol Hill did not respond to requests for comment.

The slowdown described in the report was apparent across major sectors of the healthcare market. The 3.6 percent rate of growth represents a deceleration since last year, when health spending rose 4.1 percent.

Experts pointed to slower growth in spending for Medicare and private health insurance as the most important reasons for the trend. Health insurance premium growth slowed from 4 percent in 2012 to 2.8 percent last year, while Medicare spending rose 3.4 percent, compared with 4 percent.

Other sectors saw their rates of spending increase, exerting upward pressure on the total numbers.

In Medicaid, expenditures rose 6.1 percent, to $449.4 billion or 15 percent of total health spending. The total cost of retail prescription drugs also rose 2.5 percent, the report stated.

The figures were published Wednesday afternoon in the online version of the journal Health Affairs.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Lanval
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Lanval » Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:02 pm

72Hardtop wrote:
I do work in a hospital. Costs have not been curbed. In fact most people will find out that in most cases ACA will either:

1. Cost more out of pocket
2. Not cover their cost/s
So long as insurance is a for-profit business, that argument is pointless beyond measure. BTW, I worked for an HMO for some time. The problem of rising costs is squarely on insurance companies and a lack of meaningful competition. The average doctor's office doesn't even know what the real cost of their service is; it's based entirely on how insurance companies pay for stuff. How do I know?

CAT scan in Japan (socialized health care according to gov't regulation) total cost of CAT scan was $600
CAT scan in California (private health insurance dictated by the market) total cost of CAT scan was $8000

Is it really 10x more expensive to buy and use a CAT scan in the US? Nope. Are the nurses and doctors being paid better? Maybe, but that's not the difference. So what is the difference? Insurance companies.

Until we solve that problem, everything is a band-aid including the ACA.

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:56 am

Lanval wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:
I do work in a hospital. Costs have not been curbed. In fact most people will find out that in most cases ACA will either:

1. Cost more out of pocket
2. Not cover their cost/s
So long as insurance is a for-profit business, that argument is pointless beyond measure. BTW, I worked for an HMO for some time. The problem of rising costs is squarely on insurance companies and a lack of meaningful competition. The average doctor's office doesn't even know what the real cost of their service is; it's based entirely on how insurance companies pay for stuff. How do I know?

CAT scan in Japan (socialized health care according to gov't regulation) total cost of CAT scan was $600
CAT scan in California (private health insurance dictated by the market) total cost of CAT scan was $8000

Is it really 10x more expensive to buy and use a CAT scan in the US? Nope. Are the nurses and doctors being paid better? Maybe, but that's not the difference. So what is the difference? Insurance companies.

Until we solve that problem, everything is a band-aid including the ACA.

And you know what the patient in Japan pays out of pocket? Zero

In the US 12 different hospitals within 20 miles of one another all have different rates for the exact same procedure. And those rates vary by wide margins in most cases. The ACA has had little effect on this.
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:57 am

Amskeptic wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:Costs have not been curbed. In fact most people will find out that in most cases ACA will either:
1. Cost more out of pocket
2. Not cover their cost/s
Anecdotes are one thing . . . but the facts are in. The ACA is actually performing better than expected.

************************************************************************************
NOVEMBER 2013

From the White House Council of Economic Advisers:
The Affordable Care Act has resulted in significantly reducing the per capita cost of health care.
To be clear, the per capita cost of health care is rising but the ACA has significantly reduced the growth in health care costs. That’s different.
Per capita health care costs have been rising at just under 3 percent a year over the last four years,
but that’s less than half the average annual growth in the preceding eight years.

• Health care spending growth is the lowest on record. According to the most recent
projections, real per capita health care spending has grown at an estimated average
annual rate of just 1.3 percent over the three years since 2010. This is the lowest rate on
record for any three-year period and less than one-third the long-term historical
average stretching back to 1965.
• Health care price inflation is at its lowest rate in 50 years. Recent years have also seen
exceptionally slow growth in the growth of prices in the health care sector, in addition
to total spending. Measured using personal consumption expenditure price indices,
health care inflation is currently running at just 1 percent on a year-over-year basis, the
lowest level since January 1962. (Health care inflation measured using the medical CPI
is at levels not seen since September 1972.)
• Recent slow growth in health care spending has substantially improved the long-term
Federal budget outlook. The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has reduced its
projections of future Medicare and Medicaid spending in 2020 by $147 billion (0.6
percent of GDP) since August 2010. This represents about a 10 percent reduction in
projected spending on these programs. These revisions primarily reflect the recent slow
growth in health care spending
• The ACA is contributing to the recent slow growth in health care prices and spending
and is improving quality of care. ACA provisions that reduce Medicare overpayments to
private insurers and medical providers are contributing to the recent slow growth in
health care prices and spending. In addition, ACA reforms that aim to improve the
quality of care are reducing hospital readmission rates and increasing provider
participation in payment models designed to promote high-quality, integrated care.
• New economic research shows that the ACA’s Medicare reforms are likely to reduce
health care spending and improve quality system-wide. Recent research implies that
reforms to Medicare will have “spillover effects” that reduce costs and improve quality
system-wide. In economic terms, this suggests that efforts to reform Medicare’s
payment system are “public goods.”
• Accounting for “spillovers” implies that the ACA’s effect on health care price inflation
may be much larger than previously understood. The direct effect of ACA provisions
that reduce Medicare overpayments to private insurers and medical providers has been
to reduce health care price inflation by an estimated 0.2 percent per year since 2010.
Accounting for the “spillover effects” discussed above raises this estimate to 0.5 percent
per year, which represents a substantial fraction of the recent slowdown.

**************************************************************************
NOVEMBER 2014

Healthcare spending in the US grows at slowest rate since 1960

By Elise Viebeck - 12/03/14
U.S. healthcare spending grew 3.6 percent in 2013, the slowest rate on record since 1960, federal health officials reported Wednesday.

The figures represent good news for the Obama administration in its effort to contain the growth of healthcare costs, though experts disagreed on how much the federal healthcare reform law has played a role.

Total medical expenditures in the United States reached $2.9 trillion last year, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) said in an annual report.

The total share of the economy devoted to health remained largely the same, at 17.4 percent, while health spending per person was $9,255, up from $8,915 in 2012, the report stated.
"This report is another piece of evidence that our efforts to reform the healthcare delivery system are working," said CMS Administrator Marilyn Tavenner in a statement.

Civil servants who prepared the report said ObamaCare influenced the slowdown but said the economy was the biggest factor.

"The most prominent provisions of the Affordable Care Act were implemented in 2014 and will be discussed in our historical report next year," said Micah Hartman, a statistician in the Office of the Actuary at CMS.

The conflicting emphases highlight a perennial policy debate over the historically low rise in medical spending over the last five years.

Supporters of the Affordable Care Act are eager to tie the trend to the law's reforms, while actuaries say the relationship between economic growth and health spending is a more likely factor.

The White House touted the news as evidence ObamaCare is working.

"The Affordable Care Act has also made a meaningful contribution to recent trends by introducing payment reforms in Medicare and other public programs," wrote Jason Furman, chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers, in a blog post Wednesday.

"These reforms … are generating significant savings in Medicare and, if recent research results are correct, catalyzing changes in the private sector that are generating additional savings."

Republican leaders on Capitol Hill did not respond to requests for comment.

The slowdown described in the report was apparent across major sectors of the healthcare market. The 3.6 percent rate of growth represents a deceleration since last year, when health spending rose 4.1 percent.

Experts pointed to slower growth in spending for Medicare and private health insurance as the most important reasons for the trend. Health insurance premium growth slowed from 4 percent in 2012 to 2.8 percent last year, while Medicare spending rose 3.4 percent, compared with 4 percent.

Other sectors saw their rates of spending increase, exerting upward pressure on the total numbers.

In Medicaid, expenditures rose 6.1 percent, to $449.4 billion or 15 percent of total health spending. The total cost of retail prescription drugs also rose 2.5 percent, the report stated.

The figures were published Wednesday afternoon in the online version of the journal Health Affairs.
And one will find many other internet claims stating just the opposite.
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 01, 2015 4:37 pm

72Hardtop wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:
From the White House Council of Economic Advisers:
the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS)
Office of the Actuary at CMS.
And one will find many other internet claims stating just the opposite.
Of course. That is why we need to cite our sources. Mine are above.
Crackpot websites are all over.
The Patriotic Americans For The Overthrow Of Marxist Socialists, they will claim that governmental sources are not to be trusted, but they offer not a damn thing to bolster their credibility. Since Congress and the White House use the above, I figure that those are the numbers that decisions are based upon. Now the Koch Brothers may sprinkle money all over the Glenn Beck loonies, but that does not legitimise them in the slightest.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

pj
Addicted!
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by pj » Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:21 pm

Colin, if someone had listed your same sources touting something from the GW Bush white house, you know there are people on this site who would have said something to the effect of "dirty lying bastards cooking the books". So why would you be surprised that there are people on this site who see your sources and say something to the effect of "dirty lying bastards, cooking the books"?

Lanval
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Lanval » Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:11 pm

72Hardtop wrote:And you know what the patient in Japan pays out of pocket? Zero
That's not true; standard gov't insurance requires a 30% copay across the board, plus a monthly payment that is scaled according to your income.

Hospitals don't have a fixed cost, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter, because the insurance companies determine what they'll pay based on their need for profit rather than a percentage of the actual cost (which is why the different hospitals have different "costs").

I've lived with several different insurance plans abroad, and worked with an HMO here in the US. It's quite clear how our system works once you've seen the inside; so long as insurance is for profit and costs aren't regulated in some way, we'll have this problem. In that we can agree that the ACA won't fix this issue. But don't pretend the problem is the ACA ~ it's an attempt to lessen the problem of insurance cost, not a worsening of the problem.

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:21 pm

Lanval wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:And you know what the patient in Japan pays out of pocket? Zero
That's not true; standard gov't insurance requires a 30% copay across the board, plus a monthly payment that is scaled according to your income.

Hospitals don't have a fixed cost, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter, because the insurance companies determine what they'll pay based on their need for profit rather than a percentage of the actual cost (which is why the different hospitals have different "costs").

I've lived with several different insurance plans abroad, and worked with an HMO here in the US. It's quite clear how our system works once you've seen the inside; so long as insurance is for profit and costs aren't regulated in some way, we'll have this problem. In that we can agree that the ACA won't fix this issue. But don't pretend the problem is the ACA ~ it's an attempt to lessen the problem of insurance cost, not a worsening of the problem.

Quite the contrary...

My wife, in-laws and both my kids are all citizens of Japan ( Shizuoka-Fujieda, Japan). This has been discussed before with the in-laws they pay nothing out of the pocket. Unless you of course are considering the taxes they pay. Even I myself have had treatment...and I paid nothing and I'm not even a citizen.

Prescription meds are far cheaper in Japan as well.

Now dentistry in Japan is quite different.
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

Lanval
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Lanval » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:15 pm

72Hardtop wrote:
Lanval wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:And you know what the patient in Japan pays out of pocket? Zero
That's not true; standard gov't insurance requires a 30% copay across the board, plus a monthly payment that is scaled according to your income.

Hospitals don't have a fixed cost, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter, because the insurance companies determine what they'll pay based on their need for profit rather than a percentage of the actual cost (which is why the different hospitals have different "costs").

I've lived with several different insurance plans abroad, and worked with an HMO here in the US. It's quite clear how our system works once you've seen the inside; so long as insurance is for profit and costs aren't regulated in some way, we'll have this problem. In that we can agree that the ACA won't fix this issue. But don't pretend the problem is the ACA ~ it's an attempt to lessen the problem of insurance cost, not a worsening of the problem.

Quite the contrary...

My wife, in-laws and both my kids are all citizens of Japan ( Shizuoka-Fujieda, Japan). This has been discussed before with the in-laws they pay nothing out of the pocket. Unless you of course are considering the taxes they pay. Even I myself have had treatment...and I paid nothing and I'm not even a citizen.

Prescription meds are far cheaper in Japan as well.

Now dentistry in Japan is quite different.
You'll need to speak with them further. I also have in-laws in Japan, but I was in Japan, and used the national insurance service. They are paying out of pocket if they use the national (gov't) insurance. If not, then they're using private insurance (despite what the low-grade morons here in the US think, gov't regulated and private insurance can survive... as long as the private insurance provides a reasonable step-up in quality).

It's well known that the private insurance in Japan is better than the national gov't insurance, so that's probably what your in-laws use. In that case, they are still paying for it, not through taxes, but through the employer. I've never used that insurance, so it's quite likely that the cost never shows up to them (in other words, the employer is paying the insurance directly, instead of paying the employee and then deducting the cost of insurance as is done here in the US); however, that means the overall income of the company is decreased by the cost of the insurance, and as such, can be seen to be a cost borne indirectly by the employee.

Be that as it may, the national insurance requires that you pay out of pocket for the 30% co-insurance, in addition to a monthly fee, based on your income. Fact. If you like, I'll post some receipts from when I was there ~ still have 'em.

Here's an explanation from Wikipedia that is reasonably clear:

"Insurance Premiums

This section is outdated. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (April 2014)
In 2013 the calculation method for premiums changed.

There are three types of NHI premiums. The head of household is responsible for payment, even if they are not a NHI member. The rate at which the premiums are calculated is based on the Resident's tax (住民税 juuminzei?) amount charged by the local municipal government. This is in turn based on income earned by that member during the previous calendar year. Resident’s tax is determined in June, and notifications are sent in July. Because of this, the yearly NHI premium is divided into 10 installments. In 2010 the premiums were:

Category 1 - The basic premium (for regular NHI members.)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all NHI members in the household by 0.80. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of insured household members by 31,200. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 500,000 per year.

Category 2 - The premium for supporting the elderly (for people older than 75.)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all NHI members in the household by 0.23. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of insured household members by 8,700. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 130,000 per year.

Category 3 - For nursing care (for people in long-term care)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all category 2 NHI members in the household by 0.11. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of category 2 household members by 12,000. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 100,000 per year.

Here's a spot where you can read up on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_H ... 28Japan%29

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Apr 06, 2015 4:49 pm

Lanval wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:
Lanval wrote:
72Hardtop wrote:And you know what the patient in Japan pays out of pocket? Zero
That's not true; standard gov't insurance requires a 30% copay across the board, plus a monthly payment that is scaled according to your income.

Hospitals don't have a fixed cost, and even if they did, it wouldn't matter, because the insurance companies determine what they'll pay based on their need for profit rather than a percentage of the actual cost (which is why the different hospitals have different "costs").

I've lived with several different insurance plans abroad, and worked with an HMO here in the US. It's quite clear how our system works once you've seen the inside; so long as insurance is for profit and costs aren't regulated in some way, we'll have this problem. In that we can agree that the ACA won't fix this issue. But don't pretend the problem is the ACA ~ it's an attempt to lessen the problem of insurance cost, not a worsening of the problem.

Quite the contrary...

My wife, in-laws and both my kids are all citizens of Japan ( Shizuoka-Fujieda, Japan). This has been discussed before with the in-laws they pay nothing out of the pocket. Unless you of course are considering the taxes they pay. Even I myself have had treatment...and I paid nothing and I'm not even a citizen.

Prescription meds are far cheaper in Japan as well.

Now dentistry in Japan is quite different.
You'll need to speak with them further. I also have in-laws in Japan, but I was in Japan, and used the national insurance service. They are paying out of pocket if they use the national (gov't) insurance. If not, then they're using private insurance (despite what the low-grade morons here in the US think, gov't regulated and private insurance can survive... as long as the private insurance provides a reasonable step-up in quality).

It's well known that the private insurance in Japan is better than the national gov't insurance, so that's probably what your in-laws use. In that case, they are still paying for it, not through taxes, but through the employer. I've never used that insurance, so it's quite likely that the cost never shows up to them (in other words, the employer is paying the insurance directly, instead of paying the employee and then deducting the cost of insurance as is done here in the US); however, that means the overall income of the company is decreased by the cost of the insurance, and as such, can be seen to be a cost borne indirectly by the employee.

Be that as it may, the national insurance requires that you pay out of pocket for the 30% co-insurance, in addition to a monthly fee, based on your income. Fact. If you like, I'll post some receipts from when I was there ~ still have 'em.

Here's an explanation from Wikipedia that is reasonably clear:

"Insurance Premiums

This section is outdated. Please update this article to reflect recent events or newly available information. (April 2014)
In 2013 the calculation method for premiums changed.

There are three types of NHI premiums. The head of household is responsible for payment, even if they are not a NHI member. The rate at which the premiums are calculated is based on the Resident's tax (住民税 juuminzei?) amount charged by the local municipal government. This is in turn based on income earned by that member during the previous calendar year. Resident’s tax is determined in June, and notifications are sent in July. Because of this, the yearly NHI premium is divided into 10 installments. In 2010 the premiums were:

Category 1 - The basic premium (for regular NHI members.)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all NHI members in the household by 0.80. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of insured household members by 31,200. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 500,000 per year.

Category 2 - The premium for supporting the elderly (for people older than 75.)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all NHI members in the household by 0.23. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of insured household members by 8,700. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 130,000 per year.

Category 3 - For nursing care (for people in long-term care)
Calculated by multiplying the total residents tax paid by all category 2 NHI members in the household by 0.11. This is the income levy. Then multiplying the number of category 2 household members by 12,000. This is the per capita levy. These two levies added together are the annual premium that must be paid. The maximum possible is 100,000 per year.

Here's a spot where you can read up on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_H ... 28Japan%29

Wiki is far from an accurate/dependable source. My in laws have both private as well as the government insurance and they pay zero (aside from taxes). In fact, my father in law just finished a treatment (Pancreatic) that required a lengthy dose of steroids and his out of pocket expense was again...zero. Now the taxes they pay are...

I to have used the national health in Japan...I paid nothing...zero...nada...zip. And I'm not even a citizen of Japan. Which is nearly impossible to attain unless you were born or have immediate family from Japan such as mom or father.

Father in-law is self employed...insurance broker.

The following is a little unknown US law that many are unaware of...

https://www.healthlawyers.org/hlresourc ... atute.aspx
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

Lanval
IAC Addict!
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by Lanval » Mon Apr 06, 2015 10:16 pm

No. You didn't. End of story. There is no way to have national insurance in Japan and not pay. Maybe someone else paid for you, but you're wrong, and as I said ~ I lived in Japan, and have the receipts to prove it. Attempting to discredit Wikipedia on such an obvious and well documented point is pointless. Stop dissembling and get on with your argument.

72Hardtop
Old School!
Location: Seattle, WA./HB. Ca./Shizuoka, Japan
Status: Offline

Re: The Police In America Are Becoming Illegitimate

Post by 72Hardtop » Mon Apr 06, 2015 11:19 pm

Lanval wrote:No. You didn't. End of story. There is no way to have national insurance in Japan and not pay. Maybe someone else paid for you, but you're wrong, and as I said ~ I lived in Japan, and have the receipts to prove it. Attempting to discredit Wikipedia on such an obvious and well documented point is pointless. Stop dissembling and get on with your argument.

Believe what you wish. I live both here in the US (and continue to) in Japan for the better part of 25 years. The national system in japan as archaic as it can be... rely heavily on taxes and thru subsidies (Who said NOT pay?). End of story. There is no argument. It is what it is. It isn't difficult to discredit Wikipedia...it's a user edit away. Let me guess...馬鹿 外人...aka..."baka gaikokujin"

If you lived in Japan then you should know this fairly easy...

What formal process does a foreigner need prior to use of services in Japan? If you are unable to answer that with accuracy then don't bother posting back only to discredit yourself further. Wiki is not your friend.

And with that I leave you with this..."Shinai sasenai"
1972 Westy tintop
2056cc T-4 - 7.8:1 CR
Weber 40mm Duals - 47.5idles, 125mains, F11 tubes, 190 Air corr., 28mm Vents
96mm AA Biral P/C's w/Hastings rings
42x36mm Heads (AMC- Headflow Masters) w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
Web Cam 73 w/matched Web lifters
S&S 4-1 exhaust w/Walker 17862 quiet-pack
Pertronix SVDA w/Pertronix module & Flamethrower 40K coil (7* initial 28* total @3200+)
NGK BP6ET plugs
002 3 rib trans
Hankook 185R14's

Post Reply