America's educational system...

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Amskeptic
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Re: America's educational system...

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:57 am

asiab3 wrote:
hippiewannabe wrote: Are you saying your stepdad joins the leftist chorus that the No Child Left Behind shovel full of sand thrown against the 50 year tide of decline and entrenched mediocrity was not an honest attempt to improve things, but was instead a conspiracy to enrich Bush cronies?
I don't know if he's saying that, but it IS true. The Bush family has had close family ties with the McGraw family* since the 1930's. Harold McGraw was placed on the Board of Directors of oil company ConocoPhillips, the Chairmanship of the National Council on Economic Education, and the Education Task Force of the Business Roundtable.

*McGraw-Hill Education was one of the three biggest profiteers in the NCLB program, (if not the largest.) They sold the company for $2.5 billion cash in 2012. After grossing over a billion a year with the program.

It doesn't stop with NCLB… CommonCore and the Pearson scam continue in the direction, so I guess every decade has its own. I wish I could type more from my phone.

Next week,
Robbie
While my stepfather has not specifically spelled out what he thinks of No Child Left Behind, he has seen a resultant drop in enthusiasm among the teachers who now have to teach to the test. I personally think that the consequences of teaching to the test, the squelching of creativity, the demoralization of the good teachers, is a whole lot more serious than a pot shot about the "leftist chorus".

You should see what the rightist chorus wants to put in textbooks . . . :geek:

The 50 year decline towards mediocrity includes a severe de-funding of higher education that has been a hallmark of republican goals, not to mention attacks against teachers unions, local property taxes that fund local schools, and the fomenting of hostility towards intellectual thought starting with Adlai Sevenson in the 50's all the way up to sneering at Obama's education at Harvard.

Currently, Texas wants Moses introduced into American history textbooks and wording about climate change to be deleted and descriptions of Islam to include that beheading is sanctioned by their sacred texts. Oy. You like entrenched mediocrity? Texas is shoveling a whole new pile of idiocy upon us.
Colin
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Re: America's educational system...

Post by Lanval » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:56 am

No one on this board knows more about standardized testing than I do. Simply put, standardized testing is a way for educational institutions to attempt to quantify student performance in order to meet the financial expectations of gov't/private entities. That's the only thing such testing does. Scores mean nothing, I can, and have, changed scores in excess of 600 points in the English sections of the SAT alone.

Standardized testing is the death of meaningful intelligence. It's not problem solving in any way, shape or form.

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Re: America's educational system...

Post by asiab3 » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:58 pm

Amskeptic wrote: While my stepfather has not specifically spelled out what he thinks of No Child Left Behind, he has seen a resultant drop in enthusiasm among the teachers who now have to teach to the test.
Some of us decided to quit while we were ahead…
Lanval wrote: Standardized testing is the death of meaningful intelligence. It's not problem solving in any way, shape or form.
I'm glad we agree. I never got far enough down the rabbit hole to look into how/why these tests are made, so your take on the assessment is interesting; I never thought the SAT graders had so much leeway.

The SAT/ACT dichotomy I found through myself and many of my friends left me cold and curious after high school. I scored 740ish on my SAT. That's a rejection letter from every college in the country. I scored a 33 on the ACT. That's Harvard level. Right here I can see that a single test with ANY kind of influence over the grand arc of childrens' education is not to be judged without other comparable assessments.
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Re: America's educational system...

Post by hippiewannabe » Sat Dec 06, 2014 3:01 pm

Amskeptic wrote: The 50 year decline towards mediocrity includes a severe de-funding of higher education that has been a hallmark of republican goals, not to mention attacks against teachers unions, local property taxes that fund local schools, and the fomenting of hostility towards intellectual thought starting with Adlai Sevenson in the 50's all the way up to sneering at Obama's education at Harvard.
Another favorite leftist canard that simply isn't true.
According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the U.S. spent more per student than any other country on public education in 2009, the last year for which information was available. For all levels of public education, the U.S. spent $15,812 per student in 2009. That’s the highest in the world. Switzerland was second at $14,716. Mexico spent $2,895 per student.
State and local governments in the U.S. spent $859.9 billion on public education in 2010, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. That’s a 30.1 percent increase from $660.5 billion (adjusted for inflation) that the U.S. spent in 2000.
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/18515

Success is not correlated with spending. More is spent per pupil in Detroit than other Michigan communities, with far worse results. Family issues and union resistance to change overwhelm all, regardless how much money is thrown at it.

You cannot improve something unless you can measure it. The only way to measure what students have learned is to test them. "Teaching to the test" sounds bad, but if the test is accurately measuring the things kids need to know, there shouldn't be a conflict. The experiment of reduced testing is actually fairly new, and has proven to be a failure, which is why other countries never went there.
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Re: America's educational system...

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:02 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: The 50 year decline towards mediocrity includes a severe de-funding of higher education that has been a hallmark of republican goals, not to mention attacks against teachers unions, local property taxes that fund local schools, and the fomenting of hostility towards intellectual thought starting with Adlai Sevenson in the 50's all the way up to sneering at Obama's education at Harvard.
Another favorite leftist canard that simply isn't true.
According to the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, the U.S. spent more per student than any other country on public education in 2009, the last year for which information was available. For all levels of public education, the U.S. spent $15,812 per student in 2009. That’s the highest in the world. Switzerland was second at $14,716. Mexico spent $2,895 per student.
Leftist Canard . . . :pukeright:

Center On Budget and Policy Priorities
After adjusting for inflation:
States are spending $2,353 or 28 percent less per student on higher education, nationwide, in the current 2013 fiscal year than they did in 2008, when the recession hit.
Every state except for North Dakota and Wyoming is spending less per student on higher education than they did prior to the recession.[1]
In many states the cuts over the last five years have been remarkably deep. Eleven states have cut funding by more than one-third per student, and two states — Arizona and New Hampshire — have cut their higher education spending per student in half.
Statistics . . . why they even trip me up.

Total amount of spending is higher, but it must be put in context. Just like "the rich pay more in taxes than everyone else!" but if you look at the time people have to spend working to pay their taxes, most of us are working from January through the middle of May, Mitt Romney has his paid before the end of January, "but he paid more!"

So, for education spending and the priority we put on it, I like to look at education spending as a percentage of GDP. We spent 1.2% on higher education under Jimmy Carter, we spent .6% under George W Bush, and Obama has managed to see us up to .8%.
hippiewannabe wrote: Success is not correlated with spending. More is spent per pupil in Detroit than other Michigan communities, with far worse results. Family issues and union resistance to change overwhelm all, regardless how much money is thrown at it.
True that. Family issues and resistance to change, I can buy.
"Union" resistance to change not so much. Teachers have watched their salaries stagnate while their hours are now greater than any other developed country. So we are not attracting the true professionals, we are suffering terrible turn-over . . . if your business was losing half its new hires after five years, what would you do? yell at their union representatives?? and who is listening to the unions in today's corporatocracy?
hippiewannabe wrote: You cannot improve something unless you can measure it. The only way to measure what students have learned is to test them. "Teaching to the test" sounds bad, but if the test is accurately measuring the things kids need to know, there shouldn't be a conflict. The experiment of reduced testing is actually fairly new, and has proven to be a failure, which is why other countries never went there.
[/quote]

Our tests are a dismal snapshot. How do you catch the possibly poorly spelled brilliant essay? What teacher is left to plough through the essays from classrooms that have ballooned to unwieldy numbers?
The problem with education is that the dollars are not going to the teachers so much, they are going to sports programs and extremely bloated administrators and inequitably distributed equipment in the nicer suburban schools. The dollars are not being used to reduce class sizes and fund the critically necessary art and music programs. Go talk with some dedicated and experienced teachers, know any? That will be your opportunity to leave the test measures behind for a moment and see the intangible destruction occurring all around you. Our Nation's future is at stake, our preeminence is being hollowed out by the corporate cookie-cutter money game, the next generation is being cheated of critical thinking skills.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: America's educational system...

Post by hippiewannabe » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:After adjusting for inflation:
States are spending $2,353 or 28 percent less per student on higher education, nationwide, in the current 2013 fiscal year than they did in 2008, when the recession hit.
Every state except for North Dakota and Wyoming is spending less per student on higher education than they did prior to the recession.[1]
In many states the cuts over the last five years have been remarkably deep. Eleven states have cut funding by more than one-third per student, and two states — Arizona and New Hampshire — have cut their higher education spending per student in half.

Statistics . . . why they even trip me up.
That's higher education, aka college. I thought we were talking about primary education, which has seen huge increases in spending.

As someone who has paid for 40 semesters of higher education, I know all about that. 10% increases in tuition, when inflation was 2%. They blamed it on cutbacks in state support, but they snuck in increases for far more than the cuts. I have no doubt that now that I'm almost done putting my kids through, they will increase my taxes to help everyone else.
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Re: America's educational system...

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:06 am

hippiewannabe wrote: As someone who has paid for 40 semesters of higher education, I know all about that. 10% increases in tuition, when inflation was 2%. They blamed it on cutbacks in state support, but they snuck in increases for far more than the cuts. I have no doubt that now that I'm almost done putting my kids through, they will increase my taxes to help everyone else.
Your kids WILL support you in your old age, of course? You DID have them sign that form, yes?
Colin :cyclopsani:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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