Amskeptic wrote:Quadratrückseite wrote:
I agree, his sex life shouldn't be a matter of public record. But the man was using taxpayer's resources, the Arkansas State Troopers, as go betweens between prospective women he wanted to sleep with. Little bit of an abuse of power, don't you think? Should we all have just given him a big ol' Dr. Phil hug and tell him, "It's ok, you just need some counseling."
My whole point in bringing up Hillary and Bill, and to try to steer this back to Ron Paul, is I think we can do better. I'd like to see a real change for once.
And my point is:
We have to do better in
our judgments of people. We. The People. Have to show a more discriminating eye towards what matters. Those fucking hypocrites who dragged the Clinton Presidency down were judging with the very most asinine petty small minded shrill hysterical moralizing twiddlefucking idiocy the world has seen. And the world did see. If you open your perspective up, and read the international accounts of our domestic "conversation" during the Clinton years, people were dumbfounded by the juvenile antics of the vituperous assholes like Kenneth Starr and the vicious calculating attacks of Rove and Co.
You are not going to get real change if you salivate like a bored National Enquirer reader over the tawdry gossip that passes as "political conversation". If Clinton had such remarkable poll numbers through and to the end of his presidency, doesn't that tell you that perhaps the real American voters actually had more perspective than the clowns who finally got into power and fucked things up to a degree that we may not recover from? Taxpayers resources? How the hell can you use that same argument as the Clinton haters when we are now 600 billion in the hole for a war that is killing our kids too? If you can't get out of the shoebox and LOOK at what is REALLY happening, we are doomed. Taxpayer resources, shit, our taxpayer resources are financing the biggest money grab RIGHT NOW since the Gilded Age of the 20's, yeah there's some change, we are right back in the robber baron era, robbing the future of our children while giving tax cuts to the rich. It is more obscene than any private blowjob in the White House. We the people have to demand that the national dialogue start becoming more issue-oriented and adult. Your children and mine are in such hock right now, the Iraq War has been financed by borrowing! HELLO! and there was GWB "the war may cost 50 billion and be financed by Iraq's own oil" he fired the truth teller, we are looking at a TRILLION DOLLARS against our future, and you are pissed at taxpayer resources (it was wrong I agree, but perspective boy) used by a guy who tried, yes he did, tried to get a Social Security rainy day fund set aside with our surplus, ah yes the good old days. . . .
Colin
(for the record, there is a profound disappointment I feel towards Clinton blowing his opportunity to do great works and have a real legacy and I have called/emailed Hillary's senate office (she is my senator) many times to bitch about her imperial tendencies)
Colin, I think you are reading in a little bit about what I am saying...
we pretty much are on the same side here! Just because I am criticizing some of Clinton's antics, you seem to be assuming I'm a GW supporter. Or maybe I misread you. I'm just trying to be critical of both sides. I am critical of the last administration for, in my estimation, a lack of ethics. And I'm not talking about a Religious Right fanaticism here - I'm talking about basic, human decency. Kind of what I was alluding to with my comment about my daughter. This country has lost some key human morals. Family means nothing anymore. Divorce is rampant. Like it or not, right or wrong, everyone (in public office) is under a microscope. Private lives are public knowledge, and we have a greedy sensationalist media feeding on every slip up. And honestly, being in the positions that they are, they should be held to a higher standard, because they should be role models for our citizens - something to aspire to. Accountability is also gone. In the past, if someone fucked up, people had the intestinal fortitude to stand up and admit you had done wrong, and pay the price for the crime you had committed (if there was a crime). Now, it's lies, doublespeak, pass the buck, deny, blame someone else, blame society for making you the way you are. Do our young people need to see that as an example of the right way to do things? You can teach them right from wrong all you want, but when you see the President lying to his country, it tends to erode everything you have tried to teach them - and makes it ok. That goes for Clinton as well as Bush.
On the other hand, the previous administration is to be commended on getting rid of our national deficit, and a strong economy.
With regards to this administration, I agree with everything you are saying. :)
But don't think that the Democrats are looking out for the little guy, either.
They are as heavily involved with Big Business and the lobbyists as the Republicans. We're all on the same side here I think.
I was thinking about it on my way home yesterday. What do I stand for, or care about, for my next President?
Here they are:
I am concerned about our porous southern border.
I am concerned about our country's weakening dollar and loss of jobs overseas.
I am concerned about the possibility of Social Security being wiped out.
I am concerned about my country trying to stick its nose into other countries business, unless it directly involves a real threat or an attack on our soil. Real threat is vague, so I prefer diplomatic solutions. An actual attack on our country would need to be dealt with the military.
I believe I am fully capable of managing my own healthcare and retirement, and have no desire to fund anyone else's, unless they are physically unable to work.
I am against welfare for people who are physically able to work, but do not because they have learned this behavior through generations of getting handouts. In the same vein, I am for a higher working wage so that all people can afford things such as healthcare on their own.
I strongly believe in capitalism, but the gap between CEOs and the workers, especially with regards to taxes and salary, needs to be addressed NOW.
Warren Buffet gets it. Here's a
great interview with him and Tom Brokaw, if you haven't heard about it.
Tom: Mr. Buffett, everyone's obviously concerned about what's going to happen to the American stock market and to the economy for that reason. Is there reason to be concerned about the fundamentals of the American economy?
Warren: Not over the long term. I mean, in the last century-- American standard of living in real terms improved seven for one. We've-- we've got a system that works well. But we will have recessions from time to time. There-- we had 'em in that century. We had the Great Depression in that century.
But still at the end of the century, seven for one is not bad. And-- we could be-- we could be heading into a recession now. I don't know. But certainly there are some signs of that. And-- and there are certain fundamentals that are out of whack for-- temporarily. But they will get solved over time.
Tom: Is the housing crisis as serious as a lot of people think it is?
Warren: I think it probably is. There-- there are a lot of people that-- have mortgage payments that they simply aren't going to meet. Housing price appreciation which was built on everybody's model a few years ago is not going to occur for a few years. In fact, it could well be depreciation. And that changes the game a lot. It'll get solved eventually. We've got a growing population, which helps us if we get out of whack in terms of the-- the houses available. Population solves that. But it doesn't solve it next month, or even next year.
Tom: Well, you've got some businesses that are attached to housing. Furniture, for example.
Warren: Right.
Tom: When something goes wrong in housing, it really does drop down through the economy. Appliances, furniture--
Warren: You bet. (LAUGHTER) We-- we have-- we have furniture stores in a number of cities, and what you see is in a Las Vegas, where-- where the foreclosure rate is very high, sales are way off there. On the other hand, in Omaha, in Kansas City, they're up.
Tom: Are you surprised there's not more talk in this presidential campaign about economic fairness and economic justice?
Warren: Yeah. I-- I-- I am surprised-- it may be that everybody wants to be cautious-- while they're looking to get nominated, but-- but the degree to which the-- economic-- well, the taxation system has tilted toward the rich and away from the middle class in the last ten years is-- is dramatic, and I don't think it's appreciated. And I think it should be addressed.
Tom: You've gone very public with this.
Warren: Right.
Tom: You've talked about in your office, for example, you pay a much lower tax rate with all of your wealth than, say, a receptionist does.
Warren: That's exactly right, Tom. And I-- I think the only way to do it is with specifics, and-- and - and in our office, 15 people cooperated in a survey out of 18. I didn't make anybody do it. And my total taxes paid-- payroll taxes plus income tax-- and the payroll tax is an income tax. It's based on income.
Tom: Yeah.
Warren: Mine came to-- 17.7 percent. That-- that was the-- that was line 61 I think-- or, no, line 43-- is the percent of taxable income, plus payroll taxes, 17.7 percent. The average for the office was 32.9 percent. There wasn't anybody in the office from the receptionist on that paid as low a tax rate. And I have no tax planning. I don't have an-- I don't have a-- an accountant. I don't have tax shelters. I just follow what the U.S. Congress tells me to do.
Tom: Why do you think that there's not more outrage about that?
Warren: I-- I don't think people understand it. For one thing, you'll see a lot of surveys that say the rich, the top one percent pay this much of the income tax. Now I think what people don't realize is that almost one third of the entire budget comes from payroll taxes. And payroll taxes on income, just like income taxes are taxes on income.
And the payroll tax is over $800 billion out of two and a trillion, or something like that. And people don't understand-- they-- they-- that the rich pay practically no payroll tax. I mean, I paid payroll tax last year on $90 odd thousand, whatever the number is. I paid income tax on $66 million. But my double income tax, one of 'em quits at $90,000. And the remaining $66 million does not get taxed with payroll tax. So, the person who makes $60,000 in our office gets ta-- taxed in full on the payroll tax, and taxed in full on the income tax. And-- and all the statistics you read, particularly the one don't like taxes, well now, they totally ignore the payroll tax. And it's huge now.
Tom: Of all the tax lines that you've seen proposed over the years, a flat tax, a consumption tax, a more progressive income tax, which is the one that appeals to you the most?
Warren: Well, in theory a progressive consumption tax makes the most sense. I mean, if you tax the people who use the resources of society rather than ones who-- who-- who provide the resources of society, that makes more sense. And a consumption tax can be very progressive.
You can have just an unlimited IRA. As long as you invest money, and don't actually spend it for yourself, or your kids don't spend it, or whatever-- you don't get taxed. As soon as you start making withdrawals from society's bank, start using the resources, the-- the sweat of other people to-- benefit yourself, you would pay on that. That-- that's the one that makes the most sense. I don't-- it isn't gonna happen-- in all likelihood.
Certainly the worst taxes-- is something like a sales tax. I would say that we've got a pretty bad system, when we tax the person who-- who cleans out my office, the receptionist. They are paying 15-- payroll taxes, over 15 percent now, just for openers.
Most of my income is taxed at 15 percent, and-- and doesn't pay a payroll. Mainly it’s dividends and capital gains. And if you look at the For-- Forbes 400, a bunch of my fellow rich guys-- they will-- their tax rate overall to the federal government will be less than that of their receptionist. And I challenge anybody. If they want to make me a bet on that, and I've urged Congress, both the Senate and the House, to get the figures anonymously from the IRS. Just look at that Forbes 400. Takes a billion three to get on the Forbes 400 this year. And the aggregate wealth is just staggering. And those people are paying less percentage of their total income to the federal government than their receptionists are.
Tom: Will you put some money on the table on this one?
Warren: What--
Tom: You said-- you said you'd pay a million dollars to somebody.
Warren: I'll-- I'll bet-- I'll bet a million dollars against any member of the Forbes 400 who challenges-- me that the average for the Forbes 400 will be less than the average of their receptionists. So, I'm-- I'm-- I'm-- I'll give 'em an 800 number. They can call me. And the million will go to whichever charity the winner-- designates. Tom: How much are you hearing from your fellow rich fellows, as you describe them?
Warren: I don't hear anything. They're happy. They are not paying the tax rate their receptionists are.
Tom: Why do you think that is? I mean, Congress took a look at this this year with the hedge fund operators.
Warren: Right.
Tom: Who are getting taxed at about 15 percent.
Warren: And they-- and they're screaming about that. And they-- and-- and it-- and they're often deferring taxes by-- by using-- foreign tax statements. And what happens--
Tom: But why-- why won't Congress step up on this in your opinion?
Warren: Well, I-- I-- I don't know the answer to that. I do know that the hedge fund operators made a record amount lobbying-- in recent months, so they give money to the political campaign and-- and who represents the cleaning lady?
Tom: The hedge fund operators and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and others have said, "It's going too far." In fact, the hedge fund operators have created enormous wealth for the little guy as well, pension funds and other people who participate in those private equity partnerships. And so in the end it really does spread the wealth in a way.
Warren: Well, they say they work hard and that in the process of working hard they make other people money. And-- and that's true of you. That's true of a whole bunch people in the world. But that doesn't entitle them to a preferential tax rate. And the-- and the truth is that their occupation is going to work everyday. Working on the companies they buy, or working on trying to find what securities are cheap.
And when they get-- the day is done, they are taxed at a lower rate on-- on so-called carried interest and that sort of thing, they are taxed at a lower rate than the beginning rate for their cleaning lady and the payroll tax, forgetting about our income tax.
And the truth is that-- that-- that group, and really all the rich in one way or another-- have lobbyists, you know, coming out of their ears. And are down there-- whenever-- whenever something threatens their favored status, they are in Washington, you know-- en mass. And who is there representing the person that pays the payroll tax? I don't know of any group that is going around saying the-- that is saying, "It's too tough for these people who-- barely eke out a living to be paying 15 percent on payroll taxes."
Tom: Well, the Senator just across the state line here, Charles Grassley, of Iowa has spoken out about this.
Warren: I'm for him. He's a terrific guy. I mean, he-- he really wants to do something about it. But he's a very lonely man.
Tom: On the Democratic side where you would think this would be a hot issue, there hasn't been a lot of people-- there haven't been a lot of people …
Warren: No. They-- they talk about it some. But they-- they feel the pressure of money and politics, and-- and you know how-- how the number of-- of-- of lobbyists has mushroomed. And a number of the hedge-- or the private equity people were down there personally lobbying going from one Senator to another. And-- and these people make campaign contributions. They hire lobbyists. And I just don't know who's lobbying on behalf of-- of the person-- the people in my office.
Tom: Grover Norquist, who is-- the anti-tax guy, mostly on the Republican side. Why isn't there a Grover Norquist representing the receptionist and the cleaning lady?
Warren: Well-- maybe I'm trying to be that, but maybe I'm-- ineffective. And-- and it-- it's-- you know, people-- it's that old story, you know, don't-- don't tax you. Tax-- don't tax me. Tax the fellow behind the tree. Everybody hates taxes, and-- yeah. But if we're gonna raise two and a half trillion, we've gotta get it from somebody. And-- and it's-- it's very nice to say that, you know, that "I'm too heavily taxed and they should get it from somebody else." But they get-- they get almost a third of that money from the payroll tax now. And nobody ever talks about it.
We
really need a change!!!!
)
