Vote!

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tommu
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Re: Vote!

Post by tommu » Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:44 pm

Small problem we have with Mr Trump (amongst other concerns) is that he is a racist white supremicist. Pretty hard to vote for one of those isn’t it?

Still here Colin - see you sometime soon..

Abscate
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Re: Vote!

Post by Abscate » Wed Nov 18, 2020 4:32 am

We are still a year away from vaccine immunity that will let us get back to normal. 2021 will be challenging but I think with the Hope in sight, people will not suffer the despair of 2020.

The next three months, many Americans will die, however.

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asiab3
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Re: Vote!

Post by asiab3 » Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:44 pm

This is shaping up to be the second most deadly Thanksgiving in our country's history. ;)
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JLT
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Re: Vote!

Post by JLT » Thu Nov 19, 2020 11:07 am

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Nov 18, 2020 7:44 pm
This is shaping up to be the second most deadly Thanksgiving in our country's history. ;)
I must need more coffee or something. What was the first most deadly?

Unless it's the horrible turkey drop shipment in "WKRP in Cincinnati"?
-- JLT
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(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
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asiab3
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Re: Vote!

Post by asiab3 » Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:34 pm

Oh, it was a sad jab at 1600's colonialism and imperialism. You know, large gatherings bringing plagues and diseases into otherwise peaceful communities…
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JLT
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Re: Vote!

Post by JLT » Fri Nov 20, 2020 11:03 am

asiab3 wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:34 pm
Oh, it was a sad jab at 1600's colonialism and imperialism. You know, large gatherings bringing plagues and diseases into otherwise peaceful communities…
Gotcha.
-- JLT
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Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
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sgkent
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Re: Vote!

Post by sgkent » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:42 pm

tommu wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:44 pm
Small problem we have with Mr Trump (amongst other concerns) is that he is a racist white supremicist. Pretty hard to vote for one of those isn’t it?

Still here Colin - see you sometime soon..
So let me ask a question Tom - if you had one gallon of milk, and the neighbor's children were starving, would you give it to them knowing it would mean your own children would starve to death? There is only a yes or no answer available - it is the ONLY gallon of milk available. If you say no then you are a butcher who is selfish, and if you say yes then you are an awful father who would let his own children starve. If you say yes but I would hope for more then you believe in unicorns because that was not an option.
Thank You -

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sgkent
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Re: Vote!

Post by sgkent » Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:45 pm

sgkent wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:42 pm
tommu wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 6:44 pm
Small problem we have with Mr Trump (amongst other concerns) is that he is a racist white supremicist. Pretty hard to vote for one of those isn’t it?

Still here Colin - see you sometime soon..
So let me ask a question Tom - a man is asked - if you had one gallon of milk, and the neighbor's children were starving, would you give it to them knowing it would mean your own children would starve to death? There is only a yes or no answer available - it is the ONLY gallon of milk available. If he says no then he is a butcher who is selfish, and if he says yes then he is an awful father who would let his own children starve. If he says, yes but I would hope for more then he believes in unicorns because that was not an option. My father, his brothers, and cousins who would be DEEPLY opposed to your position, risked their lives so you could remain English and free. Ray didn't make it, he was torpedoed off England delivering food so that your ancestors would have something to eat.

You call them racist because it is the herd thing to do. Personally with all the liberal violence and BS that has been directed at conservatives, like your post, I see only one way left for America to resolve these differences, and that is another bloody Civil War. But it will not be our first, it will be our third. I hope you and your family survive it. Know that it is of your side's fabrication, but you may not be able to look in the mirror and see that. My family survived the first two, and if one includes the war between Native Americans and Colonials we survived that one too, because I also have Plains and Cherokee ancestors. Your choice to call Donald Trump a racist is to call me a racist too because I support his concern of returning jobs and wealth to the people who live in this country already. Remember, he asked Congress for a permanent resolution to DACA, but your side and Nancy laughed at him. Who is the racist?
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

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JLT
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Re: Vote!

Post by JLT » Sun Nov 22, 2020 2:59 pm

sgkent wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:45 pm
Personally with all the liberal violence and BS that has been directed at conservatives, like your post, I see only one way left for America to resolve these differences, and that is another bloody Civil War. But it will not be our first, it will be our third.

Well, I may be in a news bubble of my own, but I haven't heard much about "liberal violence and BS that has been directed at conservatives." We liberals are not very good at sending death threats to people we don't like. We're not the ones with guns who are making a great "show of strength" at civic buildings. We haven't lynched anybody for years and years. We don't go shooting up churches. We don't go around throwing unarmed protestors into unmarked vehicles. Our campaign rallies don't have proclamations from the podium praising violence and promising protection for those who use it. What on earth is wrong with us?

I also have Plains and Cherokee ancestors.
So I'm sure that you're a strong supporter of native Americans who are suffering from neglect from the Department of the Interior, who are fighting the acquisition of the land promised to them but oil companies need for pipelines, and who have been the difference in tipping Arizona blue in the last election. Good for you!
-- JLT
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Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"

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asiab3
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Re: Vote!

Post by asiab3 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:11 pm

sgkent wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 11:42 pm
So let me ask a question Tom - if you had one gallon of milk, and the neighbor's children were starving, would you give it to them knowing it would mean your own children would starve to death? There is only a yes or no answer available - it is the ONLY gallon of milk available. If you say no then you are a butcher who is selfish, and if you say yes then you are an awful father who would let his own children starve. If you say yes but I would hope for more then you believe in unicorns because that was not an option.
This argument falls apart when you eventually realize that life is not a zero sum game.
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TrollFromDownBelow
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Re: Vote!

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:17 pm

What drives me bananas is if you don't support Trump, your automatically a hard core, left wing commie. You can be Republican, and find the candidate so repulsive you vote for a Democrat, and vice-versa for that matter. I want secure borders, but I also want a reasonable, fair, and timely process that allows people to become citizens legally, I want a good economy, but I also don't want our government to go bankrupt in the process (even before Covid, this is the first time we've had a growing economy and a growing deficit). Some of Trump's policies I agree with, many I don't. I didn't vote for him because he is the most divisive POTUS I remember in my 50 years on this planet. He has made statements that appear to me as very racist (the most recent about the Proud Boys...). Our allies don't trust us. We need someone that can heal this countries open wounds, not rub salt into them.We need someone that other countries can trust to keep their word. That, more than anything is the most important at this moment.

I remember Obama stating one time that politics are fought between the two 40 yard lines. That's the way it should be in a democracy....nearly as many people voted for Trump as they did for Biden. This election was not a referendum. People of both political parties need to understand this.

EDIT:
I agree with you Robbie....life is not a zero sum game. Maybe you have a gallon of milk, and give them half gallon for a pound of beef that they have, but it will rot because they don't have electricity..but you do, so you get that beef and make a meal for you family. It's a weak example, but the point is, normally things aren't so black and white.
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hippiewannabe
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Re: Vote!

Post by hippiewannabe » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:32 pm

TrollFromDownBelow wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 8:17 pm
What drives me bananas is if you don't support Trump, your automatically a hard core, left wing commie.
And vice versa. If you want an immigration policy that resembles Canada or Sweden rather than open border anarchy, you are assumed to be some kind of white supremacist.
Pre-Covid, the income of minorities increased at a greater rate than whites, and inequality improved. Under Trump. That is a fact that should be acknowledged and analyzed for future policy discussions, rather than buried under a flood of hate.

The choice of candidates has always been a combination of likeability and charisma, along with policy. What is new now is that you also seem to have to choose a tribe to belong to. And that is enflamed by social media, and what the news channel you watch focusses on. I don't like Antifa anarchists and looters or the Proud Boys. I don't want to have to choose one or the other.
Truth is like poetry.
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JLT
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Re: Vote!

Post by JLT » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:29 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:32 pm
Pre-Covid, the income of minorities increased at a greater rate than whites, and inequality improved. Under Trump. That is a fact that should be acknowledged and analyzed for future policy discussions, rather than buried under a flood of hate.
That improvement was largely the result of policies that the Obama administration put into effect, and to the burgeoning recovery of the economy following the recession of 2008. It's hard to point to any policy of the Trump administration that contributed to it.

About the only effect of Trump policies on minorities was the erosion of the civil rights they gained under the Obama administration. (The website of the American Civil Liberties Union can give you all the information you need on that subject.)

I agree with you that the problem of who contributed what to the situation, and when, is a complex one, not easily reduced to sound bites and partisan proclamations. It requires looking at a situation from a variety of perspectives, and tribalism can be a huge impediment to that. But the fact that so many marched for women's rights, and so many whites marched in Black Lives Matter demonstrations, tells me that if we put tribal affiliations aside, we can make some progress. Maybe a Biden administration will open paths of dialog; he's always been pretty good at reaching across the aisle to find common ground.
-- JLT
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(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
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sgkent
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Re: Vote!

Post by sgkent » Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:04 pm

If anyone reading this were an alien, they would notice immediately that if anything goes wrong to a Democrat then the cause is always a black cat with a republican name, but if anything goes right it is because some Democrat made a policy after consulting their lucky rabbit's foot. We aren't stupid you know and when we see people with hoodies carrying torches, breaking into businesses, and lighting them on fire, we don't believe the news commentator in the foreground who is saying "this is a peaceful protest." Frankly, Baghdad Bob had more credibility than Democrat leaning media. But if someone chooses to live their lives in that fantasy, it is their choice. Myself, I'd rather looked deeper to see who is really hiding under the hoodie, and what motivated them to do what they did - but when we see Democrats praise that behavior we kinda know don't we... . It is pretty lame to have to blame all this on a President who was in office 40 years ago, and then blame someone else who wasn't even holding the reins when they accused him. But - my words fall on empty ears. So - why was the guy in a hoodie carrying a torch, and why did he and his buddies kill people? As to a civil war, tour a site like Vicksburg sometime in your life and read the monuments. Add up the dead and wounded. Ask yourself why people of this country could do that to each other. Realize that if EITHER party in a political transaction demands that the other party do all the giving time after time then bloodshed may be the end result. Those who refuse to acknowledge history are doomed to repeat it.
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

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JLT
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Re: Vote!

Post by JLT » Fri Nov 27, 2020 1:21 pm

sgkent wrote:
Thu Nov 26, 2020 11:04 pm
If anyone reading this were an alien, they would notice immediately that if anything goes wrong to a Democrat then the cause is always a black cat with a republican name, but if anything goes right it is because some Democrat made a policy after consulting their lucky rabbit's foot.
I could as accurately recast that as: "if anything goes wrong to a Republican then the cause is always a black cat with a Democrat name, {like Obama's totally dropping the ball on this pandemic thing, for instance?} but if anything goes right it is because some Republican made a policy after consulting their lucky rabbit's foot." This sort of rhetoric doesn't advance an argument. It only casts real political positions into stereotypes. Both sides drop balls, both sides seem to be consulting bunny feet. That's politics.
We aren't stupid you know and when we see people with hoodies carrying torches, breaking into businesses, and lighting them on fire, we don't believe the news commentator in the foreground who is saying "this is a peaceful protest."
Here's a question for you: if 99% of the people at a protest are peaceful, but 1% of them are out to cause trouble, does that suddenly transform the protest into a non-peaceful one? At what percentage would you draw the line? And do the intentions of the organizers count, if they publicly repudiate those who caused the trouble, and point out that the troublemakers had no affiliation with them?

And what about those people who marched with torches in Charlottesville? Were they a peaceful demonstration, even if some people were injured and one person was killed? Are you arguing that they had no right to protest? I wouldn't, even if the cause they were marching for is repugnant to me.

I'm only pointing out that when there are gross injustices and people feel that their lives or beliefs are threatened, there are going to be demonstrations. In any demonstration, there will probably some people who exploit it for their own political reasons or for personal gain. But I've been in demonstrations with as few as a couple of dozen people, and in demonstrations where there were thousands. I won't say that all of them were 100% peaceful. They usually started that way, but some went sideways, and sometimes not because the demonstrators were out for trouble:

http://jayeltee.blogspot.com/2014/04/th ... eamed.html
As to a civil war, tour a site like Vicksburg sometime in your life and read the monuments. Add up the dead and wounded. Ask yourself why people of this country could do that to each other. Realize that if EITHER party in a political transaction demands that the other party do all the giving time after time then bloodshed may be the end result. Those who refuse to acknowledge history are doomed to repeat it.
Here I am in total agreement with you. I have been to Vickburg. And Gettysburg. And Manassas. The dead speak very loudly there. I buried my father and my mother in Arlington Cemetery, and the dead speak loudly there, too. They are eloquent witnesses to what happens when people feel that dialog and debate no longer serve their purposes, and when armed conflict is their only recourse.

But when lawmakers of a party stay silent while their leader condones violence, or if that party works hard to pass legislation or force court rulings that disenfranchise legitimate voters, or if you see that party refusing to even hold a hearing for a potential Supreme Court justice, or any lower court justices, while the opposition's party nominates them, then you have to ask whether that party might just be part of the problem.
-- JLT
Sacramento CA

Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"

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