Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Over 18 ONLY! For grown-ups. . .

Moderators: Amskeptic, Sluggo

User avatar
hippiewannabe
Addicted!
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:50 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by hippiewannabe » Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:06 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Abscate wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:57 pm
It's fun to watch the self-righteous Europeans, who gained and sustained their freedom only by the sacrifice of American blood and treasure, panic as they contemplate the withdrawal of our patronage.
Sweet Jesus. Please read history books. America neither invented nor sustained democracy for most of its life. Its a great place, mostly because we can write about how great it can be and how not-great it has been, with impunity.

Voter ID laws are simply a canard for voter suppression of urban areas, which run Democratic. Why? Because when you have to live near a lot of people, some of them won't look like you, but you figure out they just want the same liberties as you, and you learn tolerance.

Bi-partisan studies have shown the upper limit on voter fraud influence is 0.02% of ballots cast.

Next topic.
Sweet Jesus yourself, I've read plenty of history. In 20,000 years of human civilization, and 5,000 years of recorded history, freedom is quite rare. Ancient Greece had something you could call democracy, but it was a tiny slice of its population and such a tiny slice of history that it is an interesting anomaly rather than real data point. No, it was the USA that began a real codified and sustainable liberation of the populace. A fact which will forever drive the French crazy.

Exactly how do these studies know the extent of voter fraud without checking IDs? Just like Chicago in 1960, failure to find the fraud may very well mean you don't have the capability to detect the fraud, not that the fraud didn't occur.
The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The next best time is today.

User avatar
tommu
Addicted!
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:37 pm
Location: Sunny Burbank
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by tommu » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:47 pm

hippiewannabe wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 9:06 pm
Abscate wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 1:57 pm
It's fun to watch the self-righteous Europeans, who gained and sustained their freedom only by the sacrifice of American blood and treasure, panic as they contemplate the withdrawal of our patronage.
Sweet Jesus. Please read history books. America neither invented nor sustained democracy for most of its life. Its a great place, mostly because we can write about how great it can be and how not-great it has been, with impunity.

Voter ID laws are simply a canard for voter suppression of urban areas, which run Democratic. Why? Because when you have to live near a lot of people, some of them won't look like you, but you figure out they just want the same liberties as you, and you learn tolerance.

Bi-partisan studies have shown the upper limit on voter fraud influence is 0.02% of ballots cast.

Next topic.
Sweet Jesus yourself, I've read plenty of history. In 20,000 years of human civilization, and 5,000 years of recorded history, freedom is quite rare. Ancient Greece had something you could call democracy, but it was a tiny slice of its population and such a tiny slice of history that it is an interesting anomaly rather than real data point. No, it was the USA that began a real codified and sustainable liberation of the populace. A fact which will forever drive the French crazy.

Exactly how do these studies know the extent of voter fraud without checking IDs? Just like Chicago in 1960, failure to find the fraud may very well mean you don't have the capability to detect the fraud, not that the fraud didn't occur.
Define freedom and liberation. This conversation is a waste of time without us knowing your understanding of these concepts.

User avatar
hippiewannabe
Addicted!
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:50 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by hippiewannabe » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:24 pm

tommu wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:47 pm
Define freedom and liberation. This conversation is a waste of time without us knowing your understanding of these concepts.
A fair question, and not that simple to answer. Reminds of the judge who said "I can't define pornography, but I know it when I see it".

I'd start with freedom of speech. If you get thrown in jail or assassinated for criticizing the government, that's not freedom. See China, Venezuela, Russia, and now Turkey.

If the government gets entangled with religion, it's even worse. See Saudi Arabia and Iran, and now Indonesia. https://www.newsweek.com/woman-complain ... on-1083788

Equality before the law is a big one. Certainly a rich person who can hire the best lawyers has an advantage anywhere in the world, but when the leaders can lock up people they don't like without due process, and replace judges at will who don't toe the line, that's not freedom.

Elections alone certainly don't automatically indicate freedom. Voting fraud is rife, and many dictators were legitimately elected before they decided to make it a one way trip. See Chavas/Maduro and Morsi. Summary executions and death squads happen in countries that have had legitimate elections, like Columbia and the Philippines. That's definitely a freedom shade of grey.

So there you go. For the most part, but definitely with exceptions, America and its allies are free, and those who oppose us are not.
The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The next best time is today.

Abscate
I'm New!
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 3:21 am
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Abscate » Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:24 pm

Im one of few Americans who has been to Iran many times since 1980, I can tell you people there talk freely about politics and many other things. The TV version of many countries is not reality.

" No, it was the USA that began a real codified and sustainable liberation of the populace"

Im sorry, thats absolutely laughable.

User avatar
hippiewannabe
Addicted!
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:50 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by hippiewannabe » Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 pm

Abscate wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:24 pm
Im one of few Americans who has been to Iran many times since 1980, I can tell you people there talk freely about politics and many other things. The TV version of many countries is not reality.

" No, it was the USA that began a real codified and sustainable liberation of the populace"

Im sorry, thats absolutely laughable.
Tell you what. Next time you go to Iran, see if you can find a Jew that hasn't been killed or ethnically cleansed. Walk down the street with them and discuss how wonderful the sovereign state of Israel is. Say that Khomeini was an idiot, and any fool can see the Twelfth Imam has yet to be born. You would never do that, because you know what would happen to them.
The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The next best time is today.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Posts: 23045
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:47 am
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:06 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 pm
Next time you go to Iran, see if you can find a Jew that hasn't been killed or ethnically cleansed.

Geeze Louise, really?

Next time you go to the U.S. see if you can make it through a day without some child getting shot dead.
It is not ethnic cleansing, but it is no less insane.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:31 am
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:34 am

You can't even go to a Madden event now without getting shot........
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

User avatar
hippiewannabe
Addicted!
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:50 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by hippiewannabe » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:10 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:06 am
hippiewannabe wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 pm
Next time you go to Iran, see if you can find a Jew that hasn't been killed or ethnically cleansed.

Geeze Louise, really?

Next time you go to the U.S. see if you can make it through a day without some child getting shot dead.
It is not ethnic cleansing, but it is no less insane.
Colin
Geeze Louise, really, yourself.

We're talking about liberty here, whether the government allows people to speak their minds without being killed or jailed. What do statistics of crimes committed by deranged people have to do with government oppression? You are simply gratuitously criticizing America, and the attempt at moral equivalence between an evil police state and a free republic with a crime problem is unfortunate and misguided. I'm certain a good submissive Nazi in the '30s was safer on the streets of Berlin than the average New Yorker of the day.

If you want to try to draw an equivalence, let's do it statistically. Your lifetime odds of being killed in a mass shooting in America are .009%. What do think are the odds of being killed in Iran for criticizing the Supreme Leader, or simply being a Jew?

It does remind me of Ben Franklin's quote, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" I heard that used against the Patriot Act, which has protected us against terrorist attacks, but *gasp*, lets the government look at your phone records with the proper warrant.

It can be argued that we should turn the knob on gun rights towards more control and less freedom, but you can't defend a genocidal religious dictatorship because we have more gun crime.
The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The next best time is today.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Posts: 23045
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:47 am
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:30 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:10 pm
Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:06 am
hippiewannabe wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 pm
Next time you go to Iran, see if you can find a Jew that hasn't been killed or ethnically cleansed.

Geeze Louise, really?

Next time you go to the U.S. see if you can make it through a day without some child getting shot dead.
It is not ethnic cleansing, but it is no less insane.
Colin
You are simply gratuitously criticizing America, and the attempt at moral equivalence between an evil police state and a free republic with a crime problem is unfortunate and misguided.

It is not gratuitous, and it is not so simple as you perceive. The entire arc of Persian iranian history has been reduced to imbecilic labeling in this country, and we choose not to remember our hand in both exploiting and destabilizing their society with the installation of and subsequent removal of the Shah, and our sudden "friendship" with Saddam Hussein followed by subsequent our deposal of same.

I think this statement, "see if you can find a Jew that hasn't been killed or ethnically cleansed" is what is entirely gratuitous and inaccurate.
Meanwhile, my criticism is rather more a call to our higher selves, an attempt that will of course be misapprehended by the gung-ho tribalists of the current corrupt order.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

User avatar
tommu
Addicted!
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2015 8:37 pm
Location: Sunny Burbank
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by tommu » Thu Aug 30, 2018 1:50 pm

According to this article, in 2016
There are around 60 synagogues across Iran – six of them in Tehran – for a population that numbers between 10,000 and 20,000.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 4931.html

But I am curious. Where do you get your information? Please post some links describing the genocide you are alluding to - or at least the odds of being executed in Iran for ".. simply being a Jew? " Even an alternative viewpoint would be interesting. Why not bring some facts to this conversation and lose some of the hysteria.

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:31 am
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:27 pm

Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Posts: 23045
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:47 am
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:06 pm

Bleyseng wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:27 pm
Now Trump is taking away Passports.....
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-wor ... -question/
or denying them.
https://www.advocate.com/transgender/20 ... -passports

November cannot come fast enough . . .
Colin :blackeye:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

User avatar
hippiewannabe
Addicted!
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:50 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by hippiewannabe » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:31 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:30 am
hippiewannabe wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:10 pm
Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:06 am
hippiewannabe wrote:
Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:39 pm
Next time you go to Iran, see if you can find a Jew that hasn't been killed or ethnically cleansed.

Geeze Louise, really?

Next time you go to the U.S. see if you can make it through a day without some child getting shot dead.
It is not ethnic cleansing, but it is no less insane.
Colin
You are simply gratuitously criticizing America, and the attempt at moral equivalence between an evil police state and a free republic with a crime problem is unfortunate and misguided.

It is not gratuitous, and it is not so simple as you perceive. The entire arc of Persian iranian history has been reduced to imbecilic labeling in this country, and we choose not to remember our hand in both exploiting and destabilizing their society with the installation of and subsequent removal of the Shah, and our sudden "friendship" with Saddam Hussein followed by subsequent our deposal of same.

I think this statement, "see if you can find a Jew that hasn't been killed or ethnically cleansed" is what is entirely gratuitous and inaccurate.
Meanwhile, my criticism is rather more a call to our higher selves, an attempt that will of course be misapprehended by the gung-ho tribalists of the current corrupt order.
Colin
Again with the moral equivalence.

When a centuries-old minority population is quickly purged by more than two thirds, un-coincidentally accompanied by the execution of many accused of spying for Israel with sham trials, calling that out can not be called gratuitous, and can be fairly called murder and ethnic cleansing.

Anyway, what point are you trying to make here? That the tyranny of the religious dictatorship is excused because 65 years ago, during the height of the existential struggle of the Cold War, the US and UK tweaked the ark of Persian history by reinforcing a continuous, 2,500 year old monarchy?

We were talking about the definition of liberty. Pointing to America's historical failings doesn't make Iran any less of a police state.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/mi ... port-iran/
The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The next best time is today.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Posts: 23045
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 8:47 am
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:36 am

hippiewannabe wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:31 pm
Anyway, what point are you trying to make here?

That the tyranny of the religious dictatorship is excused because 65 years ago, during the height of the existential struggle of the Cold War, the US and UK tweaked the ark of Persian history by reinforcing a continuous, 2,500 year old monarchy?

We were talking about the definition of liberty. Pointing to America's historical failings doesn't make Iran any less of a police state.

Oh my. You jump into fanciful suppositions to maintain your exceedingly black and white world view.

a) I "excuse" nothing.
b) "tweak" is a very small word to describe our involvement
c) I point not only to our "historical" failings, but our current ones as well.

See, we can both exercise self-reflection AND call out the horrendous behavior at the same time. And yes, we do have a responsibility to behave better to better which entreat others to behave. Especially after we butchered tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
So let's review:
Iran's ruling elite behaves horrendously.
The United States has behaved horrendously in that region as well, but we are too busy rationalizing our conduct.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

User avatar
hippiewannabe
Addicted!
Posts: 452
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 7:50 pm
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by hippiewannabe » Thu Sep 06, 2018 6:56 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Fri Aug 31, 2018 6:36 am
hippiewannabe wrote:
Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:31 pm
Anyway, what point are you trying to make here?

That the tyranny of the religious dictatorship is excused because 65 years ago, during the height of the existential struggle of the Cold War, the US and UK tweaked the ark of Persian history by reinforcing a continuous, 2,500 year old monarchy?

We were talking about the definition of liberty. Pointing to America's historical failings doesn't make Iran any less of a police state.

Oh my. You jump into fanciful suppositions to maintain your exceedingly black and white world view.

a) I "excuse" nothing.
b) "tweak" is a very small word to describe our involvement
c) I point not only to our "historical" failings, but our current ones as well.

See, we can both exercise self-reflection AND call out the horrendous behavior at the same time. And yes, we do have a responsibility to behave better to better which entreat others to behave. Especially after we butchered tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis.
So let's review:
Iran's ruling elite behaves horrendously.
The United States has behaved horrendously in that region as well, but we are too busy rationalizing our conduct.
Colin
I believe you are the one being binary here. I started the whole discussion by stating it was hard to define, and there are shades of grey.

You haven't refuted any of my points about regimes I consider evil. Because you can't, they are simply facts. Instead, you bring up America's perceived failings, drawing moral equivalence between a place where the president nominated a Supreme Court justice you don't like and a place where homosexuality is punishable by death. And now using the term "butchered" to describe inevitable accidental civilian casualties despite great care and risk to our own soldiers, equivalent to the term that would be used to describe Saddam Hussein and his ilk's deliberate killing of innocent civilians, like the gassing of Kurds and launching semi-guided missiles into population centers with no military facilities.

Those aren't fanciful suppositions, those are your words.

It's a scale, not black and white. But the distance on that scale can be huge. America doesn't have to be 100% perfect to call out oppression elsewhere, and regimes don't have to be 100% evil and devoid of any positive qualities to be rightfully called oppressive.
The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago. The next best time is today.

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Posts: 2365
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2006 11:31 am
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: Fascism . . . Coming To A Country Near You

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:58 am

Let's get the Persia history straight:
The 1953 Iranian coup d'état, known in Iran as the 28 Mordad coup d'état (Persian: کودتای ۲۸ مرداد‎), was the overthrow of the democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh in favour of strengthening the monarchical rule of Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on 19 August 1953, orchestrated by the United Kingdom (under the name "Operation Boot") and the United States (under the name TPAJAX Project[5] or "Operation Ajax"),[6][7][8][9] and the first United States covert action to overthrow a foreign government during peacetime
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

Post Reply

Return to “Free Speech”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 11 guests